Trade Rumors Involving the Jazz

[HermanG]

With all due respect... not a chance in hell.

As much as I like Kessler, at this point there's no way anyone would part with a lottery pick for a non-shooting, soft center with pretty meh athleticism who's hitting .547 from the FT line and can't switch anywhere close to the perimeter. He's played well overall for a rookie big, but to bring back a lottery pick, he'd have to have a much higher ceiling. Kessler may become a guy with that kind of value in the eyes of NBA GM's, but he's not that player yet. Rim protection is valuable in this league, but Kessler still has some huge weaknesses that really limit how much he can be a part of a modern NBA offense.

As for Vanderbilt, his stock is dropping, not rising. Frankly, his RAPTOR numbers are straight up shocking. In fact, it could be argued that he should be out of the rotation altogether if we're trying to win. At the very least he should be sent to the bench because his fit in our starting lineup is terrible. Now, I guess it is possible that there's a few teams in the league with plenty of firepower that could be willing to try to replicate Vando's Minny role and trade for him. But for a FRP? He's not a difference maker.

Beasley will always have a job in the NBA because he's a shooter who can get red hot. Unfortunately he's has been awful lately, which hasn't helped his stock, but Beasley is still the only one of these three guys who could probably bring back a reasonable FRP right now if a team desperate for scoring came along.

You have good arguments there. Just clarifying that I meant low lottery pick for Kessler.

Vando has been mentioned enough in trade rumors to believe he is seen as an asset. Late FRP should not be out of the question. I agree the RAPTOR and VAR numbers are horrible though. Dont know how much weight scouting departments give to those.

 

[Swuul]

With all due respect... not a chance in hell.

As much as I like Kessler, at this point there's no way anyone would part with a lottery pick for a non-shooting, soft center with pretty meh athleticism who's hitting .547 from the FT line and can't switch anywhere close to the perimeter. He's played well overall for a rookie big, but to bring back a lottery pick, he'd have to have a much higher ceiling. Kessler may become a guy with that kind of value in the eyes of NBA GM's, but he's not that player yet. Rim protection is valuable in this league, but Kessler still has some huge weaknesses that really limit how much he can be a part of a modern NBA offense.

As for Vanderbilt, his stock is dropping, not rising. Frankly, his RAPTOR numbers are straight up shocking. In fact, it could be argued that he should be out of the rotation altogether if we're trying to win. At the very least he should be sent to the bench because his fit in our starting lineup is terrible. Now, I guess it is possible that there's a few teams in the league with plenty of firepower that could be willing to try to replicate Vando's Minny role and trade for him. But for a FRP? He's not a difference maker.

Beasley will always have a job in the NBA because he's a shooter who can get red hot. Unfortunately he's has been awful lately, which hasn't helped his stock, but Beasley is still the only one of these three guys who could probably bring back a reasonable FRP right now if a team desperate for scoring came along.

With all due respect, there are so many things wrong here, that it is bewildering.

Kessler is an astonishing athlete for a seven footer; if he is meh, then 95% of all 7 footers in the NBA are outright atrocious. It is extremely hard to say what his ceiling is, as he has only just shown his floor. Shooting is a skill many NBA players not called Ben get better and better at; not all are Jimmy Butlers, but most get way better than they are in their rookie year. Kessler most certainly would for a trade to happen need a lottery FRP plus a roleplayer.

RAPTOR, being a box-score based stat, is an incredibly poor meter for players like Vando, who do all those small things that glues a bunch of players into a team; the hustle, the energy, the ability to improve those around him are not shown in RAPTOR or similar stats. Mk 1 eyeball test seems to suggest his value is in fact increasing, and most definitely a FRP would be needed to move him.

The league knows who Beasley is. A few good or bad matches doesn't change that. His value is not going to fluctuate anywhere based on a slump or redhot strike; he might in fact be hard to move for any decent return, most likely if he is moved it will be as a filler in addition to someone else.

 

[sip]

I completely agree, but also want to point out our massive pile of assets means its very hard to get stuck in the middle unless the GM stops doing his job completely.

Even if we end up mediocre this year, we have raised the value of several guys in our roster and can end up trading them in the future to move up in the draft or to get more assets. It does add a few years to the process but it puts us in an even better position.

I mean how many of our players were worth a FRP coming into this year? Right now Lauri alone is worth at least one very high pick or multiple mid firsts. Imo Vando, Kessler, Beasley have all raised their value and are all worth FRP (Kessler a lottery pick, other 2 late FRP I would say). I think Sexton is on that track as well... albeit he is getting tough love right now and will have to show up more in bigger minutes.

I actually think it is pretty easy to get stuck in the middle if you don't pick a direction. We need to make sure we don't lose assets for nothing and maximize the trade value of others. I'm very concerned that Clarkson bolts in free agency so I would be shopping him hard. He also plays a position where we have a ton of young players that needs minutes for development so we can figure out if they are keepers or not. At some point the goal this season needs to be clarity when it comes to how Sexton, NAW, THT and ideally Ochai could fit long term because that has a direct impact on how we approach the draft. A lot of the time there isn't going to be separation between a couple players that you are looking at to draft so position of need becomes the difference maker. I think in this draft in particular that could be the tie breaker since there are so many solid looking players.

 

[sip]

With all due respect, there are so many things wrong here, that it is bewildering.

Kessler is an astonishing athlete for a seven footer; if he is meh, then 95% of all 7 footers in the NBA are outright atrocious. It is extremely hard to say what his ceiling is, as he has only just shown his floor. Shooting is a skill many NBA players not called Ben get better and better at; not all are Jimmy Butlers, but most get way better than they are in their rookie year. Kessler most certainly would for a trade to happen need a lottery FRP plus a roleplayer.

RAPTOR, being a box-score based stat, is an incredibly poor meter for players like Vando, who do all those small things that glues a bunch of players into a team; the hustle, the energy, the ability to improve those around him are not shown in RAPTOR or similar stats. Mk 1 eyeball test seems to suggest his value is in fact increasing, and most definitely a FRP would be needed to move him.

The league knows who Beasley is. A few good or bad matches doesn't change that. His value is not going to fluctuate anywhere based on a slump or redhot strike; he might in fact be hard to move for any decent return, most likely if he is moved it will be as a filler in addition to someone else.

Kessler is a much better player than Tremendous was making him out to be but from an athlete perspective he is definitely not an astonishing athlete for a 7 footer. He is a solid athlete though which is just fine when you are his size and have really good hands.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I actually think it is pretty easy to get stuck in the middle if you don't pick a direction. We need to make sure we don't lose assets for nothing and maximize the trade value of others. I'm very concerned that Clarkson bolts in free agency so I would be shopping him hard. He also plays a position where we have a ton of young players that needs minutes for development so we can figure out if they are keepers or not. At some point the goal this season needs to be clarity when it comes to how Sexton, NAW, THT and ideally Ochai could fit long term because that has a direct impact on how we approach the draft. A lot of the time there isn't going to be separation between a couple players that you are looking at to draft so position of need becomes the difference maker. I think in this draft in particular that could be the tie breaker since there are so many solid looking players.

The picks only help us when we use them... either for players or in trades. So the way we get out of the middle is to hit on 1 or more of this year's picks. It is not a certainty by any means. We also have guys on the roster that may not provide any value in a couple years like Mike and KO.

I don't see us moving the future picks tbh... so missing on this year's picks would mean a 2 year trip on the treadmill - We may not even have a pick in 2024 unless we tank next year. It's why I'd like us to make a move to build up some additional assets that will cost us some wins this year. Even if we drop to like 8-9 instead of 14ish I think it adds enough potential to move into the top 4 and worst case grab a better prospect. Look at the Warriors for example... they didn't whiff on all three lotto picks they had but none look like they will be stars... none of them may be difference makers. We just have a lot riding on this year's draft.

 

[Chargers Jazz Angels]

Bruh it's currently impossible for the Jazz to be stuck in mediocrity

I am a huge draft guy but it doesn't take a lot to start missing on picks and get stuck. You can say all you want, but I will always worry until we have the players to be contenders.

 

[HermanG]

I actually think it is pretty easy to get stuck in the middle if you don't pick a direction. We need to make sure we don't lose assets for nothing and maximize the trade value of others. I'm very concerned that Clarkson bolts in free agency so I would be shopping him hard. He also plays a position where we have a ton of young players that needs minutes for development so we can figure out if they are keepers or not. At some point the goal this season needs to be clarity when it comes to how Sexton, NAW, THT and ideally Ochai could fit long term because that has a direct impact on how we approach the draft. A lot of the time there isn't going to be separation between a couple players that you are looking at to draft so position of need becomes the difference maker. I think in this draft in particular that could be the tie breaker since there are so many solid looking players.

The main goal for this season (according to DA) was to evaluate the players we have. DA knew that we will either:
1) Suck and get at least our own pick high or
2) Not suck and improve the value of our players (as it was very low to begin with)

Increasing the combined value of your roster and picks is a recipe that will always lead towards the top. No matter where you rank at the end of the season.

Tanking is sort of a cheat code for that, as you raise the value of your own picks "artificially". But if you give up too much roster value to tank, you might offset the benefit of tanking.

Even a top 3 pick is no guarantee you get a superstar. And there is literally no way to guarantee a top 3 pick because of the lottery.

By that total value metric, this year is already a great success for two reasons:
1) Lauri has raised his value by a metric ton and is even a Vegas top 3 favourite for MIP (with SGA and Hali)
2) Minny picks look much more valuable now than they did when we got them

DA job is to keep improving the total value. As long as he does that, there is no mediocrity threat.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

The main goal for this season (according to DA) was to evaluate the players we have. DA knew that we will either:
1) Suck and get at least our own pick high or
2) Not suck and improve the value of our players (as it was very low to begin with)

Increasing the combined value of your roster and picks is a recipe that will always lead towards the top. No matter where you rank at the end of the season.

Tanking is sort of a cheat code for that, as you raise the value of your own picks "artificially". But if you give up too much roster value to tank, you might offset the benefit of tanking.

Even a top 3 pick is no guarantee you get a superstar. And there is literally no way to guarantee a top 3 pick because of the lottery.

By that total value metric, this year is already a great success for two reasons:
1) Lauri has raised his value by a metric ton and is even a Vegas top 3 favourite for MIP (with SGA and Hali)
2) Minny picks look much more valuable now than they did when we got them

DA job is to keep improving the total value. As long as he does that, there is no mediocrity threat.

I think we are more likely to sell off pieces than try and make an improvement. Mostly I don't see a deal that improves us short and long term being available. Maybe if Toronto blows it up but I'm not sure I'm willing to pay the price a guy like OG would command.

Overall we are in a good place, but I'd feel better if it was less Mike/KO/JC driving winning and more Sexton/Vando/Kessler - Lauri fits both timelines. The players we have likely have more trade value now, but not sure that difference is worth more than what it would cost to go from 14 to 5 in the draft. And the "value" doesn't matter unless you cash in. Curious if we can or will cash in on JC/Vando/Beasley/KO... at very least I think we should do a consolidation type deal but might be hard to find one that works.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

The Lakers are still a team to watch. I don't think they know what they are doing. Just standing pat and using cap space this summer won't yield better players than trading Westbrook and the picks. If they keep Westbrook on the cheap they will have even less cap space to play with. They also likely want to retain Reeves... someone makes an offer to him an his caphold jumps up. They are looking at like 25-30M in cap space depending on holds. What that gonna do for them?

I do wonder if they realize trading Russ for guys with an additional year or option year on their deal might actually help them make the blockbuster deal... I also wonder if Lebron signed his extension simply to make sure he could stay in LA and they would not trade him... not as a wink wink deal where they will make a big trade to make him happy. I wonder if they are more likely to trade James and AD next year and that is the real reason they don't want to trade their picks.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I think we are more likely to sell off pieces than try and make an improvement. Mostly I don't see a deal that improves us short and long term being available. Maybe if Toronto blows it up but I'm not sure I'm willing to pay the price a guy like OG would command.

Overall we are in a good place, but I'd feel better if it was less Mike/KO/JC driving winning and more Sexton/Vando/Kessler - Lauri fits both timelines. The players we have likely have more trade value now, but not sure that difference is worth more than what it would cost to go from 14 to 5 in the draft. And the "value" doesn't matter unless you cash in. Curious if we can or will cash in on JC/Vando/Beasley/KO... at very least I think we should do a consolidation type deal but might be hard to find one that works.

Locke starting to push that narrative too

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I am a huge draft guy but it doesn't take a lot to start missing on picks and get stuck. You can say all you want, but I will always worry until we have the players to be contenders.

Ok, but theres one or two levels between contender and mediocrity. It's not an either or thing. The Jazz will comfortably be very interesting for years to come

 

[Tremendous Upside]

I just think the rest of the season smells like a buyer's market. None of the true contenders have the type of debilitating injury issues or holes in their rosters where they'd be desperate to bring in guys like Clarkson, Olynyk or Vando - let alone Conley. And I don't see most of the middle class teams trying to get stronger at the last minute for a possibly fruitless playoff run that would only kill their draft positioning.

My hunch is that Clarkson isn't gonna find the bag he's looking for out there, there will be absolutely zero market for Vando and Conley, and Olynyk will draw some interest but not the type where it would make any sense to trade him.

It's not as simple as "Let's sell off our veterans".

 

[Tremendous Upside]

Vando has been mentioned enough in trade rumors to believe he is seen as an asset.

I haven't seen any rumors where it's implied that there's demand for him. It's mostly been "Utah is open to trading Vanderbilt".

 

[HermanG]

I haven't seen any rumors where it's implied that there's demand for him. It's mostly been "Utah is open to trading Vanderbilt".

Shamet reported that Suns wanted him specifically in that 3 way deal. Lillard tweeted a pair of eyes just few weeks ago to a tweet speculating Vandos trade value (earlier Lillard named his top 3 players he'd love to see Blazers add.. Bridges, OG and Vando).

His athleticism, upside and hustle combined with his contract are reasons why he has value.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I just think the rest of the season smells like a buyer's market. None of the true contenders have the type of debilitating injury issues or holes in their rosters where they'd be desperate to bring in guys like Clarkson, Olynyk or Vando - let alone Conley. And I don't see most of the middle class teams trying to get stronger at the last minute for a possibly fruitless playoff run that would only kill their draft positioning.

My hunch is that Clarkson isn't gonna find the bag he's looking for out there, there will be absolutely zero market for Vando and Conley, and Olynyk will draw some interest but not the type where it would make any sense to trade him.

It's not as simple as "Let's sell off our veterans".

I think its mostly a buyer's market but I do think the Suns will be a bit more desperate with their injury woes. I think Conley is a better trade chip next year. Just start managing his minutes more for now.

I think Beasley is maybe the guy that has the best market/contract/fit and could be the guy that is moved. JC I think is still more likely to be extended. He's worth a first... especially if he will sign an extension with his acquirer... but his production is more like a first plus.

We aren't going to have cap space if we keep our guys... so I would look at deals that help alleviate other cap issues. Atlanta, Miami, Phoenix all have some need to offload money. The two step trade I might try if I am in Ainge's seat is cashing in on Beasley/Vando - say to the Suns for a pick and then routing Crowder/KO to Miami for Robinson and a draft pick... I think Duncan could be revitalized a bit with how we like to run guys off screens... maybe his production isn't wildly different than Beasley who you cashed in... plus you get compensation for taking on his ****** contract.

All this to say... I think there are a few teams that are likely ready to make a deal if they get a team to bite.

 

[Shad]

It's honestly time to blow it up. Everyone but 'maybe' Lauri should really be on the block.

 

[sip]

The picks only help us when we use them... either for players or in trades. So the way we get out of the middle is to hit on 1 or more of this year's picks. It is not a certainty by any means. We also have guys on the roster that may not provide any value in a couple years like Mike and KO.

I don't see us moving the future picks tbh... so missing on this year's picks would mean a 2 year trip on the treadmill - We may not even have a pick in 2024 unless we tank next year. It's why I'd like us to make a move to build up some additional assets that will cost us some wins this year. Even if we drop to like 8-9 instead of 14ish I think it adds enough potential to move into the top 4 and worst case grab a better prospect. Look at the Warriors for example... they didn't whiff on all three lotto picks they had but none look like they will be stars... none of them may be difference makers. We just have a lot riding on this year's draft.

I agree, I would be very surprised if we end up moving any of our future picks with the exception of the Nets/Philly pick since we have a clear idea of where that will likely sit. As far as this years picks go I wouldn't expect anyone we take to come in and have a big impact. There are tons of players I really like but almost everyone is still pretty raw and will take a few years of development to have a better idea of what they can do. That is why it is so important to figure out what we already have with these young guys because that gives us a much better idea of how we need to build this thing going forward. Right now I'm starting to feel pretty comfortable penciling Sexton in as that Jason Terry type of 6th man. The same goes for NAW in that Ingles type of glue guy role. My hope going into the season was that we would see Ochai step into that Royce type of 3 and D role but that obviously hasn't happened.

 

[sip]

I just think the rest of the season smells like a buyer's market. None of the true contenders have the type of debilitating injury issues or holes in their rosters where they'd be desperate to bring in guys like Clarkson, Olynyk or Vando - let alone Conley. And I don't see most of the middle class teams trying to get stronger at the last minute for a possibly fruitless playoff run that would only kill their draft positioning.

My hunch is that Clarkson isn't gonna find the bag he's looking for out there, there will be absolutely zero market for Vando and Conley, and Olynyk will draw some interest but not the type where it would make any sense to trade him.

It's not as simple as "Let's sell off our veterans".

Your take on Vando might be the worst take I have ever seen. He has a massive market with his level of play and salary number.

 

[Bodhi]

It's honestly time to blow it up. Everyone but 'maybe' Lauri should really be on the block.

I gotta hear the logic here.

 

[sip]

I think its mostly a buyer's market but I do think the Suns will be a bit more desperate with their injury woes. I think Conley is a better trade chip next year. Just start managing his minutes more for now.

I think Beasley is maybe the guy that has the best market/contract/fit and could be the guy that is moved. JC I think is still more likely to be extended. He's worth a first... especially if he will sign an extension with his acquirer... but his production is more like a first plus.

We aren't going to have cap space if we keep our guys... so I would look at deals that help alleviate other cap issues. Atlanta, Miami, Phoenix all have some need to offload money. The two step trade I might try if I am in Ainge's seat is cashing in on Beasley/Vando - say to the Suns for a pick and then routing Crowder/KO to Miami for Robinson and a draft pick... I think Duncan could be revitalized a bit with how we like to run guys off screens... maybe his production isn't wildly different than Beasley who you cashed in... plus you get compensation for taking on his ****** contract.

All this to say... I think there are a few teams that are likely ready to make a deal if they get a team to bite.

I actually think it is more of a sellers market. With no clear cut title favorite there are a ton of teams that are all in on competing this year and that is always a great thing for sellers. The question as always though is what kind of salary a seller is willing to take back to make things match. That is what likely makes Vando the most attractive of our guys for other teams is his salary is so easy to absorb. One team to keep an eye for a Vando trade if the bridge hasn't been completely burned might be the knicks. Something built around Vando for Reddish and either the mavs or knicks pick.