Trade Rumors Involving the Jazz

[Handlogten's Heros]

Royce, Bogey and Conley are just average/below average starters that are not even top 15 in their positions meaning DM can just randomly go to any team and there's more than 50% chance that he will find better help than what the Jazz put together right now.

I mean if you take an all-star and remove him from one team... and add him to another team without that team having to give something up... then yeah you might have a 50% chance at him having more help. Like if Steph landed on our team he might have more help than the leftover Warriors are giving him.

A better exercise is to say... swap Donovan and Luka... which team is better? Which guy has more help?

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

The NBA is won by teams with two way players who assist the "stars". We don't have a single good two way player. That's why we struggle so much when it matters most.

Royce, Bogey and Conley have value, but not at the amount of minutes in such key roles we expect of them.

The NBA is won in a lot of ways. Having two-way stars who make role players better than they would be otherwise is more true than what you are pitching here. You can give Zach Lavine and Bradley Beal a bunch of Reggie Bullocks and they won't do as well as Jimmy Butler/PG13/Kawhi. Boston can have Al Horford and Robert Williams but they ain't **** without Brown and Tatum.

 

[jom2003]

Royce is very much below average, yeah.

Bogey is very much above average. He's a near All-Star level player when it comes to offensive production.

Same with Conley, but more on a team scale and less individual.

Gobert is one of the best defensive players of all time and one of the best rim running centers at improving his team's ability to create open shots on offense.

Royce is very much below average, yeah.

Bogey is very much above average. He's a near All-Star level player when it comes to offensive production.

Same with Conley, but more on a team scale and less individual.

Gobert is one of the best defensive players of all time and one of the best rim running centers at improving his team's ability to create open shots on offense.

Above average offensively and below average defensively makes Bogey an average player for SF spot. KD, Lebron, Kawhi, PG, Butler, two Bridges, Tatum, Brown, Middleton, Ingram, Wiggins, Grant. Tell me how Bogey would start over any of them.

And Conley at this point of his career is VERY below average. I can name at least 16 or 17 PGs that will start over him, meaning he will be nothing more than a backup on over half of the teams in the league.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Above average offensively and below average defensively makes Bogey an average player for SF spot. Kawhi, PG, Butler

Yes because that's how things work.

 

[LoPo]

I mean if you take an all-star and remove him from one team... and add him to another team without that team having to give something up... then yeah you might have a 50% chance at him having more help. Like if Steph landed on our team he might have more help than the leftover Warriors are giving him.

A better exercise is to say... swap Donovan and Luka... which team is better? Which guy has more help?

Luka's team is better. When Luka was out, they had two starters who could create offense. If Don was out, we would be left with Clarkson. We saw this dynamic at play last postseason against a younger, inexperienced Memphis team. Conley actually had a pretty solid game with Don out, but it wasn't enough and we lost. Conley is actually worse this year than last.

Playoff offense and playoff defense are both important. One impacts the other. Not only is our defense weak, our offense doesn't make the opponent work. It's easy to defend then they have energy to torch our defense.


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[Ujfanatic]

It is likely KCP and something else. They love Kuzma. I proposed Deni and KCP and some thought it was absurd. Depends on if you think Mike is just cooked or if he just had a bad series... also depends on what they think of Deni. If he is just his stats its not super impressive... I think he has a chance to be a great super glue guy... he's also working with Drew Hanlen this offseason. If it was KCP+Ish and a second or two I wouldn't be surprised. It does save us some money and Ryan loves saving money.

It will be interesting to see how they assess their roster. I have to assume they brought Porzingis in with the hopes of restoring him to his Knicks self. If so, I don't know if Porzingis and Kuzma make sense together. Rui may be a better fit with Porzingis. They also have Bryant (UFA) and Gafford to consider and presumably are not coming back with all of them.

Personally I would love to take a try with Kuzma. I know he has flaws but I think he still has a lot of upside and would be a really nice fit on this roster. He could play next to Gobert and be a small-ball 5 as well.

 

[LoPo]

He was much more a role player this year. Bogey is a role player too... Conley isn't a franchise pillar like Rudy and Donovan... is that your argument here.

I just think you are too sensitive to any middle ground here. If Donovan had a good series by his standards we win the Dallas series... if Mike had a good series by his standards we likely win the series... are you happy now or does Donovan need to not be mentioned at all?

Its just amazing that some talk about Donovan like he's a top 5-10 player but if someone else says he should perform like a top 5-10 player for us to realize our ultimate goal he is a hater/clown who can't see the real issues.

I've already pointed out that Donovan has played out of his mind and it didn't lead to a series win. There is no sensitivity. I have said repeatedly that Don had a bad series. Not nearly as bad as Conley, but it wasn't good.

You keep saying that we win the series if Donovan had a good series. I think our team flaws are so bad that your point isn't true. Our system is flawed and our roster construction is poor.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Luka's team is better. When Luka was out, they had two starters who could create offense. If Don was out, we would be left with Clarkson. We saw this dynamic at play last postseason against a younger, inexperienced Memphis team. Conley actually had a pretty solid game with Don out, but it wasn't enough and we lost. Conley is actually worse this year than last.

Playoff offense and playoff defense are both important. One impacts the other. Not only is our defense weak, our offense doesn't make the opponent work. It's easy to defend then they have energy to torch our defense.


Sent from my SM-A516U using JazzFanz mobile app

Wow that one game that Utah barely lost because Rudy played 20 minutes due to foul trouble.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I've already pointed out that Donovan has played out of his mind and it didn't lead to a series win. There is no sensitivity. I have said repeatedly that Don had a bad series. Not nearly as bad as Conley, but it wasn't good.

You keep saying that we win the series if Donovan had a good series. I think our team flaws are so bad that your point isn't true. Our system is flawed and our roster construction is poor.

And I’ve already explained that just because I say if Donavan had a good series we’d have beat Dallas doesn’t mean it applies to all playoff series… so why mention the others where he played well and we lost.

Playing well not only applies to his shooting but also his defense. Don’t need him to be a stopper but give maximum effort and focus to have some effect. I think game one he got a key steal… do a little more of that type of stuff.

 

[LoPo]

Above average offensively and below average defensively makes Bogey an average player for SF spot. KD, Lebron, Kawhi, PG, Butler, two Bridges, Tatum, Brown, Middleton, Ingram, Wiggins, Grant. Tell me how Bogey would start over any of them.

And Conley at this point of his career is VERY below average. I can name at least 16 or 17 PGs that will start over him, meaning he will be nothing more than a backup on over half of the teams in the league.

Bojan needs to be our 3rd or 4th best offensive player, but instead he's our 2nd.

Conley isn't that bad of a player. He's just a bad fit. Much like Bojan, Conley needs to be a team's 4th best offensive player or maybe 3rd if options 1 and 2 are that strong. He should run some offense, hit a few open shots, be solid on both ends.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

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THs is the game that proves the Jazz have no one else to score besides Don?

Seems like Bogey put up 29 and Conley put up 22 on good efficiency and the only reason they lost is because Gobert fouled out in 25 minutes.

 

[YoungJefe]

Royce is god awful. 6'4 PF

 

[LoPo]

And I’ve already explained that just because I say if Donavan had a good series we’d have beat Dallas doesn’t mean it applies to all playoff series… so why mention the others where he played well and we lost.

Playing well not only applies to his shooting but also his defense. Don’t need him to be a stopper but give maximum effort and focus to have some effect. I think game one he got a key steal… do a little more of that type of stuff.

Don did have a good game against Dallas. I've already pointed that out. In Game 6, he played well offensively and he busted his *** defensively. I'm not saying he played great defensively, but he wasn't some cone. We lost Game 6 despite him having a good game. Statistically, he should have had an even better game but Conley and Bojan were literally that bad.

What you're trying to do is say that if Donovan was some great defender, we would win that series. Whether you like it or not, we have to use an example of when Don played amazing offense and amazing defense in a series. He did that against Denver in Game 7, and it didn't lead to a win.

Steph Curry isn't asked to play better defense to win. Last year, his team didn't even make it out of the play-in game. Was he blamed for not playing better defense? No. Their loss was because injuries sapped them of the team necessary to advance. Well, our team doesn't have what is necessary to advance.

Our schemes and roster balance are both weak.

 

[jom2003]

Bojan needs to be our 3rd or 4th best offensive player, but instead he's our 2nd.

Conley isn't that bad of a player. He's just a bad fit. Much like Bojan, Conley needs to be a team's 4th best offensive player or maybe 3rd if options 1 and 2 are that strong. He should run some offense, hit a few open shots, be solid on both ends.

Nah, let Conley sit on the bench where he belongs. He's at a disadvantage matchup against nearly 20 PGs in this league. He can't even hold his own against Jalen ****ing Brunson what do you expect him to do against other elite PGs during playoffs?

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Luka's team is better. When Luka was out, they had two starters who could create offense. If Don was out, we would be left with Clarkson. We saw this dynamic at play last postseason against a younger, inexperienced Memphis team. Conley actually had a pretty solid game with Don out, but it wasn't enough and we lost. Conley is actually worse this year than last.

Playoff offense and playoff defense are both important. One impacts the other. Not only is our defense weak, our offense doesn't make the opponent work. It's easy to defend then they have energy to torch our defense.


Sent from my SM-A516U using JazzFanz mobile app

That’s not the question though… swap Luka and Donovan which team wins the series.

We have some flaws for sure… but some on here act like nothing we do benefits Donovan and it’s just not true at all. Like all he needs are better teammates and he morphs into this different player. Don and Mike both shot awful on spot up threes… that is just a small sample statistical aberration that has nothing to do with the other players on the court. No system change or stretch 5 changes that. The answer I have it’s that the whole thing is part of the problem… not one particular player. So you can point out the other stuff and I will agree with some of it… but changing all that won’t change that Donovan has to get better at certain things and if he doesn’t then it’s all just rearranging deck chairs on the titanic.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Don did have a good game against Dallas. I've already pointed that out. In Game 6, he played well offensively and he busted his *** defensively. I'm not saying he played great defensively, but he wasn't some cone. We lost Game 6 despite him having a good game. Statistically, he should have had an even better game but Conley and Bojan were literally that bad.

What you're trying to do is say that if Donovan was some great defender, we would win that series. Whether you like it or not, we have to use an example of when Don played amazing offense and amazing defense in a series. He did that against Denver in Game 7, and it didn't lead to a win.

Steph Curry isn't asked to play better defense to win. Last year, his team didn't even make it out of the play-in game. Was he blamed for not playing better defense? No. Their loss was because injuries sapped them of the team necessary to advance. Well, our team doesn't have what is necessary to advance.

Our schemes and roster balance are both weak.

Huh???? Playing well in one individual game does not guarantee victory ya dummy… playing well in games 1-4 consistently means we go up 3-1 or sweep… playing well across the series (which means there may be one bad game or two) is different than one damn game.

You haven’t watched Steph or you don’t know what you are watching. He’s worked really hard to get stronger and is a good defender. He does so much between his passing and gravity that GS can play two non shooters and guys like Klay that don’t dribble. Steph ain’t really relevant here… they lost because they had so many injuries to their stars (including Steph). You need the other guys too… no one is arguing that… but if Steph plays like **** his team won’t win.

If Donovan plays good on offense (so better than average) and plays Steph level defense then we win the Dallas series. Watch Steph guard the Mavs last series and tell me Donovan was that engaged and effective. He has a lot more help for sure… help matters… but we also played them without their best player for 3 games.

 

[LoPo]

That’s not the question though… swap Luka and Donovan which team wins the series.

We have some flaws for sure… but some on here act like nothing we do benefits Donovan and it’s just not true at all. Like all he needs are better teammates and he morphs into this different player. Don and Mike both shot awful on spot up threes… that is just a small sample statistical aberration that has nothing to do with the other players on the court. No system change or stretch 5 changes that. The answer I have it’s that the whole thing is part of the problem… not one particular player. So you can point out the other stuff and I will agree with some of it… but changing all that won’t change that Donovan has to get better at certain things and if he doesn’t then it’s all just rearranging deck chairs on the titanic.

If Don was on the Mavs, the Mavs win the series. Hell, they beat us without Luka for two games.

I never said "nothing we do benefits Donovan". I don't know where you get that.

My point has been clear - we gotta surround Donovan (and Rudy before we have come to this point where Rudy is probably sacrificed due to poor roster management) with guys who can defend the perimeter and can create a little offense. You were saying those same things in recent offseasons.

 

[LoPo]

Huh???? Playing well in one individual game does not guarantee victory ya dummy… playing well in games 1-4 consistently means we go up 3-1 or sweep… playing well across the series (which means there may be one bad game or two) is different than one damn game.

You haven’t watched Steph or you don’t know what you are watching. He’s worked really hard to get stronger and is a good defender. He does so much between his passing and gravity that GS can play two non shooters and guys like Klay that don’t dribble. Steph ain’t really relevant here… they lost because they had so many injuries to their stars (including Steph). You need the other guys too… no one is arguing that… but if Steph plays like **** his team won’t win.

If Donovan plays good on offense (so better than average) and plays Steph level defense then we win the Dallas series. Watch Steph guard the Mavs last series and tell me Donovan was that engaged and effective. He has a lot more help for sure… help matters… but we also played them without their best player for 3 games.

Game 6 is an example. Y'all keep complaining that he needs to be unselfish, play harder on defense and shoot efficiently. He did that, and we still lost.

I don't think Steph is a good defender. I think he's passable. It helps that he has loads of perimeter defending help on that roster. He is never asked to carry the entire load on offense and guard well on the other end, but y'all just expect Don to. When Steph's team wins, he's got a lot of help on both ends. Don hasn't had that luxury at any point in his career.

Due to that point above, I don't think we win the series if Don plays defense like Marcus Smart and offense like he's capable. Maybe we stretch it 7 games. It's a team game, and our team is weak and coaching shows zero flexibility.

Regardless, Don struggled this year because everybody else (minus JC at times) struggled. You can't just snap your fingers and say play better. Don struggled because they surrounded him on defense and he didn't play to his standard. Why? Because Dallas wasn't worried about the other 4 guys on the court burning us.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

If Don was on the Mavs, the Mavs win the series. Hell, they beat us without Luka for two games.

I never said "nothing we do benefits Donovan". I don't know where you get that.

My point has been clear - we gotta surround Donovan (and Rudy before we have come to this point where Rudy is probably sacrificed due to poor roster management) with guys who can defend the perimeter and can create a little offense. You were saying those same things in recent offseasons.

We have Luka in that scenario... so its a Luka for Don swap.

I agree we needed to do that... but it will just end in second round exits unless Donovan himself improves as a defender and passer. Its also the hardest player types to find... defend the perimeter and create? They also need to be able to shoot or Donovan has no space to operate. You can have those guys and Donovan shoots 40/20 on big volume and you lose.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Game 6 is an example. Y'all keep complaining that he needs to be unselfish, play harder on defense and shoot efficiently. He did that, and we still lost.

I don't think Steph is a good defender. I think he's passable. It helps that he has loads of perimeter defending help on that roster. He is never asked to carry the entire load on offense and guard well on the other end, but y'all just expect Don to. When Steph's team wins, he's got a lot of help on both ends. Don hasn't had that luxury at any point in his career.

Due to that point above, I don't think we win the series if Don plays defense like Marcus Smart and offense like he's capable. Maybe we stretch it 7 games. It's a team game, and our team is weak and coaching shows zero flexibility.

He played well in game 6 and we lost... his role players had good games in the series that we also lost.

If Don plays like Marcus Smart on defense and plays good (so slightly above average) we sweep them... we win games 2/3 easily. Brunson ain't going for 40 against Smart... the series is over. GTFO.

Steph doesn't do it alone... but he's the reason Draymond can be an all-star. He's superior to Donovan on both sides of the ball. If Donovan gets to a place where he's at Steph's level defensively we will be a lot better.