Transgender and sports

[One Brow]

Lia Thomas won the women's 500 with a time of 4:33.24. Matthew States won the men's 500 with a time of 4:06.61. In the most recent Utah High School championship, Tanner Nelson from Bingham won the boys 500 in 4:30.06.

Lia Thomas is also well into the transition process.

As a sophomore (3 years ago) in the notoriously slow Brown University Ivy League pool, Thomas swam a 500Fr of 4:18.72. Had she not transitioned, there is every reason to expect Thomas would have been in the NCAA championships as a male swimmer. She has lost 20 seconds (in Ivy League pools) since the transition, despite three additional years of training and growth.

A future athlete trying to duplicate what Thomas has done this year would have to go on testosterone suppression while continuing to race against men for a full year, ...A college swim team would be well within its rights to cut any male athlete that was too slow to win a spot on the men's team. The chances of a male athlete being among the fastest male swimmers on a men's college swim team through three years of testosterone suppression is zero.

You're assuming the hormone suppression starts after high school, when many states allow puberty blockers much younger. As student could easily have three years of hormone treatment before starting college (IIRC, it was Terry Miller who had started hormone treatments before her freshman year of high school).

It doesn't. You don't understand the roadblock the NCAA has put up. The door appears open but it isn't.

Wishful thinking on your part.

 

[One Brow]

Not at all. They are welcome to compete against other athlete who are their same biological sex.

Transitioning girls are no longer biologically male, at least not physiologically.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

Transitioning girls are no longer biologically male, at least not physiologically.

Yes they are. All you are doing is demonstrating ignorance over what makes an organism biologically male. It is possible to sterilize a male human. It is possible to surgically alter a male human to disguise sexual characteristics. It is not possible to change the biological sex of a male human. Changing the amount of testosterone, an incorrect statement you have made multiple times, does nothing to change biological sex.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

Had she not transitioned, there is every reason to expect Thomas would have been in the NCAA championships as a male swimmer.

Yes! Exactly! You have it 100% on the nose. The transitioning made Lia Thomas slower. A future athlete will have to transition and still compete against non-transitioning male swimmers and continue to win against them for 3 years to keep their spot on the team before they are allowed to compete against women. The NCAA is legally providing a path but biologically making that path impossible.

The truth is that programs don't want this kind of controversy. If you've ever looked at the Twitter feed of an elite high school athlete, they are squeaky clean. Any hint of controversy in an athlete's social media will cause elite schools to pass on offering a scholarship. Lia Thomas tricked Penn. They thought they were getting a good male swimmer who would quietly win races. When Lia Thomas transitioned and declared for the women's swim team, Penn had zero choice. They had to back Lia Thomas because of people like you. The other young women on the swim team had to voice support because of people like you. If an athlete starts transitioning in high school and fully discloses that to a program before that program makes a scholarship offer, that transparency would be welcome. More likely than not, it would result in no offers from anyone. Proof of that can be seen in the example of Andraya Yearwood, the Connecticut high school track athlete who began transitioning while in high school and beating every biologically female track athlete in every race. Andraya got no offers from anyone, enrolled at North Carolina Central University, and no longer pursues athletics. I genuinely wish nothing but the best for Andraya Yearwood. The strawman of 'trans hate' over this issue of biological males dominating in women's sports is nothing but dishonest tactics in effort to defend the indefensible.

Speaking for myself, I have no issues with anyone living any way they want to so long as they aren't hurting other people without that other person's consent. It is those individuals who use the power of the mob to bully their way into taking undeserved opportunity that I have no time for.

 

[One Brow]

Yes they are. All you are doing is demonstrating ignorance over what makes an organism biologically male.

That's pretty amusing, coming from a person that can't make a 100% accurate definition of what a biological male even is.

It is possible to sterilize a male human. It is possible to surgically alter a male human to disguise sexual characteristics.

I agree that neither of those these changes the biologically male status.

It is not possible to change the biological sex of a male human. Changing the amount of testosterone, an incorrect statement you have made multiple times, does nothing to change biological sex.

Are you saying that there is no such thing as male endocrinology versus a female endocrinology, or that the type of endocrinology you have is irrelevant to being biologically male? Because that pretty much would destroy every other argument you've made in this thread.

Yes! Exactly! You have it 100% on the nose. The transitioning made Lia Thomas slower.

Now you're destroying your own point about the fairness of Thomas competing against cis women. Your exposing your position as incoherent and based on hate, not sound thinking, better than I ever could have done.

A future athlete will have to transition and still compete against non-transitioning male swimmers and continue to win against them for 3 years to keep their spot on the team before they are allowed to compete against women.

Not if they start transitioning in high school.

Lia Thomas tricked Penn.

Wow, you really have a persecution complex.

They had to back Lia Thomas because of people like you.

The NCAA never does anything based on people like me.

The other young women on the swim team had to voice support because of people like you.

Odd you proclaim this, after bringing example after example of those swimmers protesting. You are truly being incoherent here.

Andraya got no offers from anyone,

From whom did she seek offers? Perhaps she was tired of dealing with people like you.

The strawman of 'trans hate' over this issue of biological males dominating in women's sports is nothing but dishonest tactics in effort to defend the indefensible.

This coming from the person accusing Thomas of "cheating", indicating a deliberate deception on her part.

Speaking for myself, I have no issues with anyone living any way they want to so long as they aren't hurting other people without that other person's consent.

You mean, the way trans women athletes don't hurt anyone.

It is those individuals who use the power of the mob to bully their way into taking undeserved opportunity that I have no time for.

That's why you fight for cis girls who haven't deserved a spot in the championship, by bullying away other girls.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

That's pretty amusing, coming from a person that can't make a 100% accurate definition of what a biological male even is.

I've told you before, and can tell you again. In anisogamic organisms like humans, the difference between biological males and biological females is in the organic structures that produce gametes. This is true even if an organism isn't producing any gametes as it is the organic structures that produce the gametes that make the determination of biological sex of which at least one such structure, the SRY gene is present at conception.

Gamete competition, gamete limitation, and the evolution of the two sexes

Abstract. Males and females are a fundamental aspect of human reproduction, yet procreation is perfectly possible without this division into two sexes. Biologic

academic.oup.com

Now you're destroying your own point about the fairness of Thomas competing against cis women.

Not at all. Thomas seems to have been obviously slowed by transitioning but wasn't slowed so much as to be incapable of beating every biologically female college swimmer in the 500 at the NCAA championship event. If one year of transitioning with a limit of 10 nmol/L of testosterone wasn't enough to make it fair, then maybe the NCAA's new requirement of three years at 5 nmol/L of testosterone is fair. Let's see the results of the changes before we condemn them.

 

[One Brow]

I've told you before, and can tell you again. In anisogamic organisms like humans, the difference between biological males and biological females is in the organic structures that produce gametes. This is true even if an organism isn't producing any gametes as it is the organic structures that produce the gametes that make the determination of biological sex of which at least one such structure, the SRY gene is present at conception.

So, some people born with female genitals and uteri, who develop breasts, menstruate, etc.. are actually men.

You're using a paragraph in an abstract that is speaking colloquially about identifying male or female.

Not at all. Thomas seems to have been obviously slowed by transitioning but wasn't slowed so much as to be incapable of beating every biologically female college swimmer in the 500 at the NCAA championship event.

With a time that would have lost in every year going back to 2013, since 2022 was an abnormally slow year.

If one year of transitioning with a limit of 10 nmol/L of testosterone wasn't enough to make it fair,

What's unfair about being the slowest champion in 8 years?

then maybe the NCAA's new requirement of three years at 5 nmol/L of testosterone is fair. Let's see the results of the changes before we condemn them.

Interesting. Who have you been reading that's condemning these standards?

 

[Al-O-Meter]

So, some people born with female genitals and uteri, who develop breasts, menstruate, etc.. are actually men.

That condition is termed 'intersex' and is entirely different from being 'transgender'. As a wokester you should know not to confuse or conflate those communities as it is unkind to deny anyone's existence.

 

[One Brow]

That condition is termed 'intersex' ...

By your definition, they are not "intersex", they are male, which is a sex. Or, are you changing your definition?

and is entirely different from being 'transgender'.

Which is irrelevant to your failure to produce a completely accurate definition of a biological male.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

By your definition, they are not "intersex", they are male, which is a sex.

Yes they would be male and yes the would be intersex. In anisogamic organisms like humans, the difference between biological males and biological females is in the organic structures that produce gametes. The term 'intersex' relates to the development of phenotypic characteristics. It is not a third biological sex. It is possible to be male and intersex, or female and intersex.

Or, are you changing your definition?

It isn't my definition so much as the definition biologists use, but either way it remains in anisogamic organisms like humans, the difference between biological males and biological females is in the organic structures that produce gametes.

Which is irrelevant to your failure to produce a completely accurate definition of a biological male.

I produce the definition over and over. I provide resources to back it up. You, even with as good at googling as you are apparently can't find any fault in the definition, but I have no doubt you'll continue to spout unsupported ignorance like testosterone suppression making humans not biologically male.

 

[One Brow]

Yes they would be male and yes the would be intersex. In anisogamic organisms like humans, the difference between biological males and biological females is in the organic structures that produce gametes. The term 'intersex' relates to the development of phenotypic characteristics. It is not a third biological sex. It is possible to be male and intersex, or female and intersex.

So, again, you think that some people born with female genitals and uteri, who develop breasts, menstruate, etc., who have minds that developed with typically female characteristics and have female structures, are actually biologically male. I just want to be clear for the next time you discuss how professors are out-of-touch, or some other such nonsense.

It isn't my definition so much as the definition biologists use,

Some biologists use this definition, others, who have given thought to the different ways a mammal can reflect typically male or female features, find it inadequate.

I produce the definition over and over.

My apologies for forgetting the first time you mentioned it. It won't happen again.

I provide resources to back it up.

You provided a paper that wasn't even trying to come up with a rirorous definition of biologically male or female.

You, even with as good at googling as you are apparently can't find any fault in the definition,

I think I made my issue with the definition perfectly clear, and you responded by trying to divert to the notion of "intersex". So, I tried again in this post.

but I have no doubt you'll continue to spout unsupported ignorance like testosterone suppression making humans not biologically male.

Also, I'm not surprised you can't even give a complete quote of what I said, which was "not biologically male physiologically". A complete quote would be too honest for you.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

So, again, you think that some people born with female genitals and uteri, who develop breasts, menstruate, etc., who have minds that developed with typically female characteristics and have female structures, are actually biologically male.

Yes. Intersex biological males exist.

Also, I'm not surprised you can't even give a complete quote of what I said, which was "not biologically male physiologically". A complete quote would be too honest for you.

I simply didn't think you'd claim to have never said something you clearly did, and more than once. What I wrote was "you'll continue to spout unsupported ignorance like testosterone suppression making humans not biologically male."

Here are your actual quotes:

Technically, once you have started hormone therapy, you have changed your biology and are no longer biologically male.

Once you are on hormone therapy, you are no longer biologically male.

 

[One Brow]

Yes. Intersex biological males exist.

That's not what I asked, but unless you say otherwise, I'll take that to mean you think there are biological males born with female genitals and uteri, who develop breasts, menstruate, etc., who have minds that developed with typically female characteristics and have female structures. Therefore, to compete in NCAA/USA women's swimming, you would expect these people to be forced to get three years of hormone treatments and provide evidence they don't have an unfair advantage, or else accuse them of cheating.

I simply didn't think you'd claim to have never said something you clearly did, and more than once.

My apologies. I was careless about adding the adverb initially. I should have said, 'Technically, once you have started hormone therapy, you have changed your biology and are no longer biologically male physiologically'. I would have thought both both 'technically' and "once you have started hormone therapy" to be sufficiently clear caveats, but I was wrong.

What I wrote was "you'll continue to spout unsupported ignorance like testosterone suppression making humans not biologically male."

Which I stand by, with the clarification that I meant physiologically.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

My apologies. I was careless about adding the adverb initially. I should have said, 'Technically, once you have started hormone therapy, you have changed your biology and are no longer biologically male physiologically'. I would have thought both both 'technically' and "once you have started hormone therapy" to be sufficiently clear caveats, but I was wrong.

Which I stand by, with the clarification that I meant physiologically.

The only part about any of your post that is correct is the part where you admitted you were wrong. Testosterone suppression has nothing to do with being biologically male or female physiologically because in anisogamic organisms like humans, the physiological difference between biological males and biological females is in the organic structures that produce gametes. Using drugs or surgery to alter phenotypic characteristics such as testosterone level or cosmetic features is not the same as making humans not biologically male physiologically. You are just wrong.

 

[The Thriller]

Natalie Cline is a state school board member elected by the fine folks from herriman, Riverton, and sojo... She’s in her 2nd year of a 4 year term. When I tell you these folks aren’t going to be satisfied with trans athlete bans, believe me. They’re coming after Obergefell.

 

[One Brow]

Testosterone suppression has nothing to do with being biologically male or female physiologically ...

I'm not buying into your circular and unrealistic definition. If you want to believe there are males with female genitals who menstruate, that's on you. Don't expect anyone to take you seriously.

I await your confirmation that, to compete in NCAA/USA women's swimming, you would expect these people to be forced to get three years of hormone treatments and provide evidence they don't have an unfair advantage, or else accuse them of cheating, since I know you prize consistency.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

I await your confirmation that, to compete in NCAA/USA women's swimming, you would expect these people to be forced to get three years of hormone treatments and provide evidence they don't have an unfair advantage, or else accuse them of cheating, since I know you prize consistency.

I do prize consistency. I wouldn't require anyone to get hormone therapy but I would require everyone competing in the girl's/women's division of sports that control for doping, including transgender, intersex, cisgender biological females, gay, straight, black, white, rich or poor, to maintain a testosterone level below 5 nmol/L both in and out of competition. If hormone therapy is required to maintain that level of testosterone then it is what it is. If an individual exceeded that level of testosterone, I would think it cheating, so would the IAAF, so would USA Swimming, and going forward so would the NCAA.

As a side note, you clearly don't know what a 'circular definition' is.

 

[One Brow]

As a side note, you clearly don't know what a 'circular definition' is.

Circular can be colloquially used to mean recursive, which your definition is not, . Circular can also be used to refer to multiple definitions that feed into one another, such as "we identify X strictly by Y, and we know of Y is correct because it is in X". Your definition is circular.

 

[TheGoldStandard]

I'm not buying into your circular and unrealistic definition. If you want to believe there are males with female genitals who menstruate, that's on you. Don't expect anyone to take you seriously.

I await your confirmation that, to compete in NCAA/USA women's swimming, you would expect these people to be forced to get three years of hormone treatments and provide evidence they don't have an unfair advantage, or else accuse them of cheating, since I know you prize consistency.

So essentially if you believe transmales exist you shouldn't expect anyone to take you seriously? (No need to respond, but maybe think before you type out idiotic statements like this).

I have to wonder why you guys keep posting on this like either you or Al will change the others mind. Quite foolish really. You both got your points across about 30 pages ago. Do you really think a discussion on JF on this will do anything? Put your money where your mouth is and actually go out and advocate instead of wating your time on this thread. Have you ever been to a trans support group, or asked a trans persons feelings on the topic rather than just spitting your diatrabe from your usual soap box?

I'd also be surprised if your employer condoned you spending what appears to be spending large chunks of your work day discussing multiple highly charged political topics, particularly since you have stated where you work multiple times on here. Just doesn't seem too wise to me.

 

[One Brow]

So essentially if you believe transmales exist you shouldn't expect anyone to take you seriously? (No need to respond, but maybe think before you type out idiotic statements like this).

That sentence had nothing to do with trans people, male or female. Try to keep up.

I have to wonder why you guys keep posting on this like either you or Al will change the others mind.

Trust me, I have no illusion he will change his mind.

Put your money where your mouth is and actually go out and advocate instead of wating your time on this thread. Have you ever been to a trans support group, or asked a trans persons feelings on the topic rather than just spitting your diatrabe from your usual soap box?

In fact, I have been reading blogs by trans people for years. I agree I would be a better person than I am if I was more of an activist.

I'd also be surprised if your employer condoned you spending what appears to be spending large chunks of your work day discussing multiple highly charged political topics, particularly since you have stated where you work multiple times on here. Just doesn't seem too wise to me.

I appreciate your concern. So far, they are happy with my ability to deliver quality data on time. I'm sure it was not in any way an attempt to dissuade me.