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Transgender and sports

There were some interesting points made in the exchange such as trans athletes being allowed double the level of testosterone that female athletes are allowed to have without that female athlete being banned from the sport for doping, and that if sports are divided among genders then it must require making 57 different (or however many genders there are) divisions but sports are current sports are two divisions because our species has two biological sexes.
The second point isn't at all interesting; there are two groups of sports because more than 95% of the population is in the man/boy or woman/girl gender.

For the first part, I couldn't find the document limiting the amount of testosterone that cis women athletes are allowed to have. Frankly, that sounds made up to me. Trans women do have a limit of <10 nmol/L (linked below). Please link to where cis women are limited to <5 nmol/L, if you can.

 
Trans women do have a limit of <10 nmol/L (linked below). Please link to where cis women are limited to <5 nmol/L, if you can.
[<5 nmol/L] is still far above levels in most women, including elite female athletes, whose levels range from 0.12 to 1.79 nanomoles per liter, states a 22-page IAAF document defending the organization's decision. ... "Therefore, a concentration of 5 nmol/L is an appropriate decision limit for purposes of these Regulations," the IAAF stated.

 
1) The IAAF is not the NCAA, so talking about two different organization as if they are the same is dishonest.
2) From your link:
In its decision, the CAS wrote it "was unable to conclude that hyperandrogenic female athletes may benefit from such a significant performance advantage that it is necessary to exclude them from competing in the female category."
3) Most importantly, this limit from the IAAF is the same for cis women and trans women. You have disproven your own claim.

So, it seems your claim was either made up or dishonestly assembled.
 
For some politicians and those who are anti-LGBTQ+, it certainly is just hate. But here’s the thing, plenty of people can be perfectly kind and loving to transgender people and also acknowledge biology and men and women exist. I don’t need to believe the semantic twisted nonsense someone like One Brow spews to be kind or caring about another person. Trying to use such delusional nonsense doesn’t help the case that these people should be treated with the same kindness and respect of any other human being because they should. For instance in the legislative hearing yesterday when one of the state Senators said “There’s no way of knowing the difference of a man or woman” there’s a reason people scoff at that and think the person saying it is entirely insane and agenda driven themselves.
I think there's definitely room for debate on what it means to be transgender. I don't think a lot of the public even knows what it means. They believe it's some sort of mental disease or perversion.

However, I don't think it's debatable that the powers that are pushing this anti-trans agenda actually don't give a **** about women's sports. Just like with CRT, they've found a way to scare a lot of moderate folks into their camp. It's not a coincidence that the same group (Alliance Defending Freedom) that pushed the Masterpiece Cakeshop lawsuit are the ones pushing much of the anti-trans laws today.

As I've said, these folks aren't going to be satisfied with banning trans athletes. They want to dismantle ALL the gains that the LGBT community has made over the last several decades.


From closing hospitals and clinics that provide care to pushing child abuse laws. Now, if you're a teacher, doctor, etc who suspects a child might be trans, you legally must report it or face punishment yourself. Is this really about "fairness" or "parental rights?" Why do a bunch of government bureaucrats know better than parents? Isn't that what Terry McAuliffe got in trouble for saying regarding public education?

What's funny is that it exempts the child abuse crime for parents of intersex children from providing them with gender affirming care, including surgeries. But wait, wouldn't that be child abuse So are we for parent rights or not? Why can parents decide when their child is intersex but not trans?


It's alarming to me that transphobia has become a way for the far right to attract new recruits. It's pretty obvious to me that this isn't at all about children, parent's rights, or women's sports. For Republicans and their far right allies, it's about using issues for political gain no matter how much it hurts minority populations.

They're not going to stop with trans sports bans. They're not going to stop with ending health care for trans people. They're already talking about ending Obergefell. They want their mythical culture of the 1950s back where women stayed in the kitchen, blacks knew their place, and white Christian men had all the privileges.

 
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So, it seems your claim was either made up or dishonestly assembled.
It is neither. That is why you can't find evidence to the contrary. The NCAA defers to the guidelines set by the parent organizations of sports such as the IAAF. The only exception is for swimming, for this year only, appliers only to transgender women (not to transgender men or biological females), and that was instituted during this swimming season for the remainder of this season in swimming which has now concluded. Going forward the NCAA will follow the guidelines of USA Swimming which limits testosterone in women to 5 nmol/L.

With regards to the quote you pulled from the article, did you understand it? Did you bother to read the very next sentence? The IAAF tried to implement the 5 nmol/L seven or so years ago and got sued at with time with the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) striking the rule down with the quote you cited. The IAAF then spent 2 years doing a scientific study proving that testosterone provides a significant performance advantage and re-instituted the 5 nmol/L which stands to this day because it is now backed scientific study.

Lia Thomas was cheating but the NCAA was so afraid of a lawsuit that it made a one year exception that covered one athlete and now that athlete has no more eligibility left. Going forward an athlete will not be able to do what Lia Thomas did in the NCAA as future athletes will be subject to the guidelines of sport parent organization USA Swimming.
 
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She has the intelligence of a ****ing goldfish. To her it's all just one thing, the other. Pete Buttigieg is a gay man married to another gay man. Why would he go into a woman's restroom? It doesn't even make sense.

I'm also still pretty confused about what supposedly goes on in women's restrooms. I mean do you ladies do your business with the stall door open? Is it all **** out in there? I can count on zero hands how many times I've seen another dude's junk in a public bathroom. I can also count on zero hands how many times someone is just hanging out, straight chillin' in the bathroom, like it's the cool new hangout. I thought bathrooms were for urinating or defecating in. That's sort of get in get it done, wash your damn hands, and get out type of thing as far as I'm concerned. But MTG is gonna MTG.
I don't disagree at all.

Put there's this weird belief that LGBT people engage in sex acts in the restroom instead of doing what "straight" people do and go #1 and #2. I think a lot of this has to do with the fear instilled in Americans during the 1970s and 1980s about gay people. Gay people were essentially equated to pedos. Same is being done with trans people. They're looked at as perverts.
 
What's funny is that it exempts the child abuse crime for parents of intersex children from providing them with gender affirming care, including surgeries. But wait, wouldn't that be child abuse So are we for parent rights or not? Why can parents decide when their child is intersex but not trans?
Because one issue is biological and the other is a social construct that research has shown has a better outcome when addressing it after puberty. The better question is why you are so interested in the genitals of other people's children.
 
I agree here, but that just makes the fight more important.
I don't disagree. But until the public knows what being transgender is even about, Republicans are going to own the majority of state houses, Congress, and the entire Judicial branch. By the time the public actually figures out what transgender even means, Republicans will have erased 3 decades worth of gains for the LGBT community. They're already talking about overturning Obergefell and Griswold. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they soon start bringing up overturning Brown v Board. Especially if they win the midterms and Trump wins in 2024.

 
It is neither. That is why you can't find evidence to the contrary The NCAA defers to the guidelines set by the parent organizations of sports such as the IAAF. The only exception is for swimming, for this year only, appliers only to transgender women (not to transgender women or biological females), and that was instituted during this swimming season for the remainder of this season in swimming which has now concluded.
You didn't link to any of this, and I suppose you expect me to take this on your word? The problem is, the clause, "The only exception is for swimming" is explicitly contradicted by the NCAA document to which I linked, a document updated in Feb-2022, which lists explicit levels in a variety of sports for trans women, not just swimming. "For this year only" is contradicted by this NCAA link, which explicitly says "Transgender student-athletes who are participating in regular season competition (including conference championships) for the remainder of academic year 2022 remain subject to the 2010 NCAA policy only." 12 years is longer than one year.

I await your evidence that, this year, cis female NCAA swimmers were limited in their testosterone level. Until that happens, your claim that cis women were so limited still looks like a lie.

It does look like the NCAA will follow the USA Swimming guidelines next year, and I agree the consistency is nice.

The IAAF then spent 2 years doing a scientific study proving that testosterone provides a significant performance advantage and re-instituted the 5 nmol/L which stands to this day because it is now backed scientific study.
Which does not change the fundamental dishonesty you presented in points 1) and 3).

Lia Thomas was cheating
Yet, you have yet to name an NCAA rule that she broke. Since USA Swimming does not consider the NCAA events to be elite events, she broke no USA Swimming rules, either.

Going forward an athlete will not be able to do what Lia Thomas did in the NCAA as future athletes will be subject to the guidelines of sport parent organization USA Swimming.
Why not? What's Thomas's testosterone level?
 
Because one issue is biological and the other is a social construct that research has shown has a better outcome when addressing it after puberty.
Why is being intersex a biological "issue", instead of simply a state of existence?
 
Why not? What's Thomas's testosterone level?
It doesn't matter. The guidelines going forward require 3 years of documented sub-5 nmol/L testosterone levels. Thomas didn't do that. An athlete who suppresses their testosterone level to that extent for 3 years will likely lose their spot on the team because other athletes will win their spot. Even if they could keep their performance level, they'd have to start suppression before their freshmen season in order to swim in their senior season. If they don't start their transition before their freshmen year, they will run out of eligibility before the end of their NCAA career. Make no mistake, the NCAA has publicly said all the right things to appease the mob while making sure that door was closed, locked, glued, and nailed shut.
 
It doesn't matter. The guidelines going forward require 3 years of documented sub-5 nmol/L testosterone levels. Thomas didn't do that. An athlete who suppresses their testosterone level to that extent for 3 years will likely lose their spot on the team because other athletes will win their spot.
All the athletes have to meet those conditions. Why will only some of them be affected? Thomas was doing second place as a freshman in the men's division. She's just a good swimmer, in a year where there were no great swimmers in the 500m FR.

Even if they could keep their performance level, they'd have to start suppression before their freshmen season in order to swim in their senior season. If they don't start their transition before their freshmen year, they will run out of eligibility before the end of their NCAA career. Make no mistake, the NCAA has publicly said all the right things to appease the mob while making sure that door was closed, locked, glued, and nailed shut.
I wonder if you noticed how your first sentence contradicted you third?
 
All the athletes have to meet those conditions. Why will only some of them be affected? Thomas was doing second place as a freshman in the men's division. She's just a good swimmer, in a year where there were no great swimmers in the 500m FR.


I wonder if you noticed how your first sentence contradicted you third?
No, you don't get it. These college level transgender female athletes exist is because they couldn't win in the men's division so they became transgender so that they could pick up some of those sweet sweet college swimming trophies.
 
No, you don't get it. These college level transgender female athletes exist is because they couldn't win in the men's division so they became transgender so that they could pick up some of those sweet sweet college swimming trophies.
It's so frustrating. He could have used a completely neutral terminology like "people will need to transition earlier than Thomas did to qualify". Instead, he's got to pull out "cheat", "door was closed", and "will not be able to do that" (the latter contradicting what they have been saying almost the entire thread). I just don't understand why someone would hate someone else that much. What can people do against such reckless hate?
 
It's so frustrating. He could have used a completely neutral terminology like "people will need to transition earlier than Thomas did to qualify". Instead, he's got to pull out "cheat", "door was closed", and "will not be able to do that" (the latter contradicting what they have been saying almost the entire thread). I just don't understand why someone would hate someone else that much. What can people do against such reckless hate?
Given that in many states, they're trying to effectively bar minors from transitioning, this will bar lots of kids from competition entirely.
 
All the athletes have to meet those conditions. Why will only some of them be affected? Thomas was doing second place as a freshman in the men's division. She's just a good swimmer, in a year where there were no great swimmers in the 500m FR.
Lia Thomas won the women's 500 with a time of 4:33.24. Matthew States won the men's 500 with a time of 4:06.61. In the most recent Utah High School championship, Tanner Nelson from Bingham won the boys 500 in 4:30.06.

Lia Thomas wasn't anywhere near fast enough to qualify for the event on the men's side and that was with only one year of testosterone suppression. A future athlete trying to duplicate what Thomas has done this year would have to go on testosterone suppression while continuing to race against men for a full year, then continue with testosterone suppression while competing against men for another year, and then continue with testosterone suppression while competing against men for a third year. Only then could the future trans athlete race against women. It isn't all athletes needing to meet those conditions, only the trans athletes would have to go on the course of testosterone suppression while competing against, and being crushed by, other male athletes who do not suppress testosterone. A college swim team would be well within its rights to cut any male athlete that was too slow to win a spot on the men's team. The chances of a male athlete being among the fastest male swimmers on a men's college swim team through three years of testosterone suppression is zero.


I wonder if you noticed how your first sentence contradicted you third?
It doesn't. You don't understand the roadblock the NCAA has put up. The door appears open but it isn't.
 
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It's so frustrating. He could have used a completely neutral terminology like "people will need to transition earlier than Thomas did to qualify". Instead, he's got to pull out "cheat", "door was closed", and "will not be able to do that" (the latter contradicting what they have been saying almost the entire thread). I just don't understand why someone would hate someone else that much. What can people do against such reckless hate?
The primary issue we have in our politics today is the sense of grievance. It’s highly effective. Few commenting about trans sports know anything about trans people or women’s sports. After the trans bathroom flop in North Carolina, bigots and well funded think tanks have successfully found a way to weaponize trans rights. Now granting trans women the right to participate in sports is “taking away” something from women. This can be used as an excuse to further attack the LGBT community until eventually Obergefell is overturned.

And this attitude permeates throughout our entire political conversation; immigration, teaching black history, social welfare net, etc are all “taking away” something from those who deserve it. Thus, creating an injustice that must be rectified. It prevents us from truly learning about issues and having an intelligent discussion. I don’t think it’s any accident that well funded lobbyists and think tanks are investing heavily in these culture war issues.
 
It's so frustrating. He could have used a completely neutral terminology like "people will need to transition earlier than Thomas did to qualify". Instead, he's got to pull out "cheat", "door was closed", and "will not be able to do that" (the latter contradicting what they have been saying almost the entire thread). I just don't understand why someone would hate someone else that much. What can people do against such reckless hate?
It really is frustrating. I mean I'll say it again and again. The trans people I've met are very private, hesitant to go into public, not trying to make anyone uncomfortable because they exist. They're just trying to ****ing live. They aren't trans to prove a point or be cool.

People act like the trans community is out here attacking our society. They act like this is an imminent threat to their own existence.

I'd like to see, instead of all the stats showing that trans people are exceptionally disproportionately the targets of violence, some stats showing how often young transgender people commit crimes compared to the general population. My guess is that transgender youth, as a group, are either the lowest or amongst the lowest as far as their crime rate.

My daughter is 20 and has never touched alcohol or drugs. Her group of friends, ranging from 17-22 are all law abiding and not a single one uses drugs or drinks at all. I can't speak as strongly about them as I do my daughter, but when they come over they entertain themselves with video games, TV shows and chatting. As someone who had an extensive juvenile record and while I mostly avoided hard drugs but was involved with MJ, acid, etc. and alcohol from my early teenage years I can spot the signs of kids either being on drugs or looking to get somewhere that they can use them. These kids spend the night sometimes. None of them has a drug problem.

They aren't hurting anyone. They're just trying to live.

I know people see the sports issue and they're like, well that's just not fair. In Utah there are 4 transgender athletes, one is in female sports. Calm the **** down. We have time to figure this out and make it fair. Instead it's being used, very very successfully, to erode any gains the trans community had made and significantly degrade the amount of sympathy many people had for the trans community.
 
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