What an embarrassing night for all Jazz fans (4/14/14). Tank crowd can suck a fat one. (LONG)

[mhindy]

The idea that somehow losing ten more games this year ruins everyone on the roster forever is comical. If we get Wiggins or Parker and they are awesome you'll be back here next year trying to pretend like you didn't create a thread that said Gary Harris was just as good.

 

[cowhide]

Check the Jazz roster in 2003-04, and their win-loss total.

Of course you need a 'superstar' and talent, but the Jazz have a few studs in the making and a few really freaking good role players in the making. My point was we were gonna be lotto most likely, and in this draft, I don't see much of a difference between 2-14. Jabari has a chance to be really special... But he could also turn into Billy Owens. Burke getting first-hand experience this year winning at least 10-15 more games is more beneficial to the Jazz in the big picture than the difference between Julius Randle and whoever gets picked 10-14.

You are making a lot of assumptions with your argument. You are assuming that the current players and coaches were trying to lose. You have no proof they were. Just because fans can see the benefits and the reality of having a losing team this year, a year that seems to have a great draft, doesn't mean that the players see it that way. Players will always play hard because of one factor, if they don't then eventually they will be out of the league. In the end the Jazz have a lot of potential on their roster and nothing more. There are very few 19 year old kids who just step into the NBA and dominate and lead their teams to the playoffs, we don't have any of those type of players. Kobe struggled when he came into the league, the potential was there but he had to develop into the superstar he was. He actually lucked out because the Laker team he was on wasn't that bad before he got there and then Shaq came on board.

Your argument that winning 10 more games some how benefits this team more than getting a top 4 pick does without anything to support that claim. We still missed the playoffs so the team doesn't get the experience of being in the playoffs. Maybe if the team won 10-15 more games and missed the playoff, the young guys get a little cocky and don't work as hard or losing so much inspires them to work harder and get better. Yes I know this is being a little ridiculous but I just don't see any benefit of winning 10 more games this year.

You are trying to make it sound like historically there is no difference of talent between the lottery picks that 2-14 are basically the same. That is a huge assumption and it is wrong. It is true that there are no guarantees that our pick will be the special player we hope he is but there is a greater chance that he is than drafting at 14 or 23rd. Simply discounting the possibility that getting a top 4 pick isn't the answer to our problems is just denying the reality of the NBA, most great players are drafted at the top of the draft.

The last assumption is that we already have the talent to win on the roster. This is subjective at best, until this season we had a lot of hope players would be who we think they are but in reality no one still really knows about Trey, Kanter, or Burks since it was their first year really playing. Favors and Hayward are good players but haven't proven they are all-stars or 1 or 2 options yet. We might lose Hayward to free agency. See there are a lot of IFs even with our current roster. Perhaps our record is exactly where our talent level is at this point. Your concern about creating a losing culture is overblown, the Jazz since arriving from N.O., have had few losing seasons and even survived losing S&M with little down time. The reality is the Jazz are right were they are because they are rebuilding and this process takes time, patience and acquiring more talent. Would you rather be the NY Knicks who follow your plan or the Jazz? Who has a better future right now?

 

[fishonjazz]

Its all been said already. I have nothing to add.

HH you just got served

 

[HighlandHomie]

The idea that somehow losing ten more games this year ruins everyone on the roster forever is comical. If we get Wiggins or Parker and they are awesome you'll be back here next year trying to pretend like you didn't create a thread that said Gary Harris was just as good.

What's hilarious is that Gary Harris is the best 2-guard in this draft. Jabari can't guard anyone and Wiggins still has plenty of room to develop in terms of playing a complete game. I'd take Parker or Wiggins over Harris (obviously) but to use Harris as an example of a poor player (comparatively speaking) is asinine.

The last time I started a thread that most Jazzfanz members disagreed with, and did so by taking personal shots at me/mocking me, it was 3 years ago (in 2011) when I started a thread about how Ty Corbin needed to be fired ASAP and wasn't an NBA coach after seeing some of the Jazz sets, rotations, etc. Looks like time has proved I hit the nail on the ****ing head then.

This particular thread isn't nearly as subjective as the Corbin one either. The one's who love the internet so much they can only post "message board one-liners" they learned on the web as responses in a basketball-talk thread have revealed themselves as clueless fans. It's all good. My mother is like that too. She has no clue what she's cheering for at the games other than knowing it's a good thing when someone in a Jazz jersey scores.

It doesn't make us any better or worse Jazz fans. We all support the beloved. But facts are that many just don't know what they're talking about, and a few became obvious in this thread. You can mock my playing experience all you want, but the relationships I built, life lessons I learned and the knowledge I've gained from playing, from my coaches and now coaching myself means a lot to me.

Any poster who claims to have played competitive sports in this thread but can't grasp the notion that a championship team doesn't win based solely on the names on the roster has shown what a ****ty teammate they must've been in their playing days.

 

[Batman]

The following may sound douchey, but since it's true, you'll have to deal with it: if you have never played competitive sports, particularly basketball, you are most likely in the pro-tank crowd. Here is why that's such a foolish perspective on this season.

Knowing how to win close, high-level games is a learned skill. Outcomes of games aren't coincidental in most cases. In basketball, there are hundreds of elements to the game and how it's played to be in position to win a game. Among those elements are something as simple as execution of basic fundamentals to as complex as a read-and-react action based on how secondary defender is guarding. The teams that do a combo of all those things better and more consistently, and at the right times, win.

The primary outrage of the Jazz consumers should lie squarely on Greg Miller who's made the choice to penny-pinch with a coach while the roster restructured from the D-Will/Booz era. Corbin may be a great guy, and perhaps knows more about basketball than any of us could ever dream of. But guess what? He can't ****ing teach it. Obviously, our roster this season featured plenty of young guys with bright futures. They had the same breakdowns defensively tonight against the Lakers (specifically guarding the pick-and-roll) that they did the first game of the preseason - and basically every game in between.

Favors and Kanter react to double teams as poorly as they have since they've come to the Jazz under Corbin's tutelage.

Burke showed his moxy as a 'killer' during the Big Dance, and several times this season. Burks was THE breakout player of the season for us, and the most positive storyline for us. He was a complete monster in the 2nd half of the season, and looks to be a star in the making. I thought I had seen enough to gather what a 'best-case scenario' would be for him last season, but he surpassed that for sure this year. His relentlessness attacking the cup and ability to get buckets in the lane, and trips to the FT line, is rare and will be an awesome piece for us.

Hayward has a really, really nice all-around game. He's had plenty of time to display a killer, alpha-dog mentality but hasn't even come close, and if he stays he'll be complementary as opposed to the star as many of us had once envisioned.

Those five NEEDED to learn to what it takes to win games in the league this year.

The window of opportunity is short, and we have talent to be a real contender down the road. If we had a capable coach the last few years grooming these pups, there's no way we finish as crappy as we do this year.

The most concerning part for me is that there's no way any of the players were 'tanking', and I'm 99.9% sure the coaching staff wasn't prepping for games or making subs with the conscious hope that it leads to a loss. To do that as a player would be admitting they aren't good enough to be real, so lets suck to try and get a good lotto pick and someone who may be good.

There's no guarantee (sans a guy every few years) that a top 3 pick rookie will be a franchise-changing, immediate impact player. To be honest, none of the current guys in the draft will be the reason a team becomes a bona fide playoff team in the next two years. So to go through a season where our great nucleus of five (TB, AB, GH, DF, EK) can't gain the invaluable experience of winning close games, and/or blowing teams out - and knowing how/why they did so - for the chance to take a kid who may or may not pan out down the line is awful. To want that is a joke, and displays cluelessness.

Aaron Gordon is the most NBA ready of all these guys because he'll be able to contribute at a relatively high level defensively and I haven't seen him projected to go top 3 anywhere. I'd take him in a heartbeat.

It is imperative the Jazz find a coach who not only is capable with the dry-erase board, but understands teaching the game and developing talent and cohesion on the court.

We've got 5 MFs who are really good in the talent dept for their respective positions, but need to be coached up at an NBA level in the worst way.

Jazz fans should've been rallying to get these 5 to get some confidence playing for and with each other by getting dubbs this year. There were plenty available.

No one who has a casual-fan's basketball mind can say the Lakers roster is more talented, or better, than the Jazz tonight. What was the difference then?

In the words if The great Cowherd, Mediocrity in the NBA is the Mauve desert

 

[HighlandHomie]

You are making a lot of assumptions with your argument. You are assuming that the current players and coaches were trying to lose. You have no proof they were.

I really appreciate the time you took to write a well-thought out response. In this thread (not original post), I clearly stated, I'm 99.9% sure they were NOT trying to lose. My issue was ownership deciding to keep Corbin in place to coach/lead/teach/etc. this group led by TB, AB, GH, DF and EK. He showed for three years how inept he was in basically all facets, and the result this season was (regardless of who's on our team in 5 years, at least 2-3 of these guys figure to be prominent pieces) our core gaining no experience in becoming winners TOGETHER.

 

[fishonjazz]

So basically highland homie thinks ty corbin sucks.
We all agree. Move along

 

[addictionary]

Wha wha what?

I needed to edit that "at least" to "even". I know it sounds extreme but it actually is not. You can pull that out if you have the tools for it. I always was a strong believer of the validity of the Spurs case on the Jazz experiment. It is possible. Just find the right driver for the truck.

 

[bordelais7]

Knowing how to win close, high-level games is a learned skill

Cliché and largely untrue at the professional level.

I coach U-10 soccer, which qualifies me as a sports psychologist. Most of my time is spent teaching, and getting players to improve their individual skills. The progress is very visible and dramatic even over short time spans.

Hayward, Favors, Kanter, Burks, Burke, etc. are not 10 years old (will provide link/source later). They may still learn and improve, but the return on that investment is barely noticeable compared to when they were younger. The coach's job at this level is not to teach them how to dribble or how to shoot or "how to win" -- they already have that skillset for the most part. His job is to put them in a position to succeed. He's a chessmaster deciding how to best use his assets and which strategy will work best against his opponent. To be fair to Corbin, he opened his chess set to find a bishop, a knight that cant jump, some pawns, a checker, and a couple of marbles. And then he started playing Candy Land with the pieces.

So this is basically a restatement of what most have said, but the Jazz don't need to learn anything -- what, you gunna teach a pawn how to jump over an opponent? Good luck with that. They need better pieces. And someone who knows how to use them.

 

[Bodhi]

Cliché and largely untrue at the professional level.

I coach U-10 soccer, which qualifies me as a sports psychologist. Most of my time is spent teaching, and getting players to improve their individual skills. The progress is very visible and dramatic even over short time spans.

Hayward, Favors, Kanter, Burks, Burke, etc. are not 10 years old (will provide link/source later). They may still learn and improve, but the return on that investment is barely noticeable compared to when they were younger. The coach's job at this level is not to teach them how to dribble or how to shoot or "how to win" -- they already have that skillset for the most part. His job is to put them in a position to succeed. He's a chessmaster deciding how to best use his assets and which strategy will work best against his opponent. To be fair to Corbin, he opened his chess set to find a bishop, a knight that cant jump, some pawns, a checker, and a couple of marbles. And then he started playing Candy Land with the pieces.

So this is basically a restatement of what most have said, but the Jazz don't need to learn anything -- what, you gunna teach a pawn how to jump over an opponent? Good luck with that. They need better pieces. And someone who knows how to use them.

This will be rep'd in roughly 22hrs.

Genuinely one of my favorite posters.

 

[homeytennis]

The following may sound douchey, but since it's true, you'll have to deal with it: if you have never played competitive sports, particularly basketball, you are most likely in the pro-tank crowd. Here is why that's such a foolish perspective on this season.

Knowing how to win close, high-level games is a learned skill. Outcomes of games aren't coincidental in most cases. In basketball, there are hundreds of elements to the game and how it's played to be in position to win a game. Among those elements are something as simple as execution of basic fundamentals to as complex as a read-and-react action based on how secondary defender is guarding. The teams that do a combo of all those things better and more consistently, and at the right times, win.

The primary outrage of the Jazz consumers should lie squarely on Greg Miller who's made the choice to penny-pinch with a coach while the roster restructured from the D-Will/Booz era. Corbin may be a great guy, and perhaps knows more about basketball than any of us could ever dream of. But guess what? He can't ****ing teach it. Obviously, our roster this season featured plenty of young guys with bright futures. They had the same breakdowns defensively tonight against the Lakers (specifically guarding the pick-and-roll) that they did the first game of the preseason - and basically every game in between.

Favors and Kanter react to double teams as poorly as they have since they've come to the Jazz under Corbin's tutelage.

Burke showed his moxy as a 'killer' during the Big Dance, and several times this season. Burks was THE breakout player of the season for us, and the most positive storyline for us. He was a complete monster in the 2nd half of the season, and looks to be a star in the making. I thought I had seen enough to gather what a 'best-case scenario' would be for him last season, but he surpassed that for sure this year. His relentlessness attacking the cup and ability to get buckets in the lane, and trips to the FT line, is rare and will be an awesome piece for us.

Hayward has a really, really nice all-around game. He's had plenty of time to display a killer, alpha-dog mentality but hasn't even come close, and if he stays he'll be complementary as opposed to the star as many of us had once envisioned.

Those five NEEDED to learn to what it takes to win games in the league this year.

The window of opportunity is short, and we have talent to be a real contender down the road. If we had a capable coach the last few years grooming these pups, there's no way we finish as crappy as we do this year.

The most concerning part for me is that there's no way any of the players were 'tanking', and I'm 99.9% sure the coaching staff wasn't prepping for games or making subs with the conscious hope that it leads to a loss. To do that as a player would be admitting they aren't good enough to be real, so lets suck to try and get a good lotto pick and someone who may be good.

There's no guarantee (sans a guy every few years) that a top 3 pick rookie will be a franchise-changing, immediate impact player. To be honest, none of the current guys in the draft will be the reason a team becomes a bona fide playoff team in the next two years. So to go through a season where our great nucleus of five (TB, AB, GH, DF, EK) can't gain the invaluable experience of winning close games, and/or blowing teams out - and knowing how/why they did so - for the chance to take a kid who may or may not pan out down the line is awful. To want that is a joke, and displays cluelessness.

Aaron Gordon is the most NBA ready of all these guys because he'll be able to contribute at a relatively high level defensively and I haven't seen him projected to go top 3 anywhere. I'd take him in a heartbeat.

It is imperative the Jazz find a coach who not only is capable with the dry-erase board, but understands teaching the game and developing talent and cohesion on the court.

We've got 5 MFs who are really good in the talent dept for their respective positions, but need to be coached up at an NBA level in the worst way.

Jazz fans should've been rallying to get these 5 to get some confidence playing for and with each other by getting dubbs this year. There were plenty available.

No one who has a casual-fan's basketball mind can say the Lakers roster is more talented, or better, than the Jazz tonight. What was the difference then?

George Karl is available. He's pretty good with young players and winning.

 

[franklin]

Started on a state title team and played DII for four years. I was hoping some members of Jazzfanz could talk basketball on a basketball message board. If you disagree that developing a winning culture is vital to building a title contender that is fair, but hopefully you can take some time to provide some reasoning as I have.

You'd expect someone with this much bball experience to understand the importance of BBIQ.