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Where did Paul Millsap go?

And I quote from you...

There was no reason to go with the "gut" when the Blazers had been playing a zone and when Miles has far more experience breaking a zone than Hayward does.
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So yes, you *were* on to talking about Hayward/CJ. Still getting old? 'nuff said.

Moving on, IGS.

Not that it's perfect either, but Hollinger's PER is my metric of choice.

Al = 17.23
Elson = 10.46
Fes = not on the chart (not enough minutes played via Hollinger's page, but basketballreference.com says 6.5)
 
chemdude1232 said:
And I quote from you...

So yes, you *were* on to talking about Hayward/CJ. Still getting old? 'nuff said.
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Well, in my 'hood, "moving on" implies "leaving where you were." In the very same post in which I mentioned CJ, I discussed Jefferson both before and after CJ. Not exactly "moving on"--and I wasn't giving up my argument, so there was no point to move on anyway.

And the CJ part--at least--was an extension about how to improve the starting lineup, given that a lineup with CJ and 4 other starters had just been posted. Hayward wasn't even mentioned by me before your "moving on" mention, so that aspect of your claim isn't particularly relevant.

chemdude1232 said:
Not that it's perfect either, but Hollinger's PER is my metric of choice.
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Wow--regarding PER, where do I start? My biggest beefs with the PER is its underrepresentation of defense--a big negative when evaluating centers especially--and the seemingly inequitable weighting of box-score stats.
https://basketbloggers.wordpress.com/2010/08/05/the-per-formula-and-its-subsequent-weaknesses/
https://www.quora.com/For-NBA-stati...ER-and-David-Berris-system-from-Wages-of-Wins

chemdude1232 said:
Al = 17.23
Elson = 10.46
Fes = not on the chart (not enough minutes played via Hollinger's page, but basketballreference.com says 6.5)
Click to expand...
I'm not denying that Jefferson's a better offensive player than FE or Fes. But the defense at the C spot is the bigger problem, and PER doesn't capture it very well. At least +/- (however imperfect) takes into account the opposing team's production and/or what happens when the player is on the court vs. when he is not.
 
I'm not maintaining it is perfect, as I mentioned previously, but really what statistic is going to account for basketball's many nuances?

Hollinger freely admits that it has a "partial blind spot." https://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&id=2190165

Cribbing a line from wikipedia now,
Neither PER nor per-game statistics take into account such intangible elements as competitive drive, leadership, durability, conditioning, or hustle, largely because there is no real way to quantitatively measure these things.
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The thing to consider at this point (in my mind at least) is which player contributes the most to these intangibles? We're going to diverge here, and I think you know who I'll pick just as much as I know who you'll pick.

I'm done with this thread for the night. I'll let you have your last say if you want it. You'll undoubtedly (continue to?) think that Sloan et. al are morons for benching your boys (and some of the rest of us for agreeing) while we'll blast you for being an armchair coach that champions a simplistic efficiency statistic.
 
Where did Millsap go? Nowhere. He is just playing like the very good role player he is. I was amused after words like "all star" and "ceilingless" were thrown by a couple of Sap homers here after that 30-pt game at Miami. Well, thats why you wait a month or two. Teams sort you out quickly in this league. Combine that with Al getting more comfortable in the system as time goes by, no wonder his numbers are down. But a bigger concern than just PPG(we have scorers) is the size and rebounding issue. We are kind of stuck there. I was puzzled when some guys here toed KOC's line and suggested that we got bigger this offseason. We actually got smaller, being stuck in a position where we have to start a 6-8 and 6-10 guy together in the frontcourt. Of course things change if Memo improves enough to start alongside Al. But that's a significant IF as of now.
 
vslice02 said:
As with most things on this board, people developed unrealistic expectations of Millsap. .
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Not the first time. Look at the other thread where some guys are claiming that Wes is the all star SG we need, the 20/10 guy that we are missing.
Consistency and hustle gets overrated sometimes on this board. And sometimes overrating happens even if the said role player is'nt consistent- see Miles thread.
 
I'm not sure how effective Millsap can be when our starting SF and SG aren't even being defended.... It makes it even harder now that Memo is still recovering. When AK and Brewer weren't being defended, at least we could have Memo stand out by the 3 point line to try and keep teams honest. Currently, all they have to do is pack in the lane. This prevents Deron from driving, Millsap from getting clean looks, and Jefferson basically takes himself out of the play by chucking up those ugly shotputs (that never go in).
 
Millsap is a great player, but he is too small to deal with Aldridge who is near 7 ft. Memo or Fes would have been a better option, especially Memo as he can draw one those 7 footers out a little. I'm not sure how many points the Jazz scored inside, but it couldn't have been many. Those two were sitting in a zone inside shutting down everything. Even though Memo is rusty, he should have seen 30 minutes.
 
Al is undersized but you lost all cred on the Sap issue. Without checking I'll be he is one of the 5 shortest starting PF in the league. I would love Al to move to PF but he has held his own against taller C's.
 
vslice02 said:
as with most things on this board, people developed unrealistic expectations of millsap. He's not an all-star but i'm glad he's on the jazz. It's an 82 game season; he'll have some good games and some bad ones in there as well.

It's no different than during that 4-game road trip in november. Numerous posters thought we were an elite team and now they're saying this team absolutely needs to make a trade to get a better wing.
When it comes to this board, the jazz are never as good as they think they are after a win, and never as bad after a loss.
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truth!
 
Jazz4ever said:
Millsap is a great player, but he is too small to deal with Aldridge who is near 7 ft. Memo or Fes would have been a better option, especially Memo as he can draw one those 7 footers out a little. I'm not sure how many points the Jazz scored inside, but it couldn't have been many. Those two were sitting in a zone inside shutting down everything. Even though Memo is rusty, he should have seen 30 minutes.
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Memo not allowed to play 30 minutes yet. Fes or Elson could have done a much better job on Aldridge I believe as well.
 
Jazz4ever said:
Millsap is a great player, but he is too small to deal with Aldridge who is near 7 ft. Memo or Fes would have been a better option, especially Memo as he can draw one those 7 footers out a little. I'm not sure how many points the Jazz scored inside, but it couldn't have been many. Those two were sitting in a zone inside shutting down everything. Even though Memo is rusty, he should have seen 30 minutes.
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According to the play-by-play, the bigs scored zero points in the paint during the fourth quarter; Williams and Watson each had more paint points than the entire frontcourt.

I think that even Fesenko could've kept with that scoring pace by the bigs--while actually putting more presence down low.

And within 2 minutes of Millsap subbing in for Elson (whom Aldridge had outscored also), Aldridge scored another 4 points, which he followed up with another 4 points down the stretch, good for 7 points above LA's career PPG average en almost exactly his average minutes.

Coaching 101: don't put a "6'8" player (maximum) back in the game on a 6'11" player who was already pwning the shorter one.
 
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