Where does Gobert rank out of the entire NBA ?

[jope]

I don't like CP3 either. Yes, he is a great player, but he dominates the ball way too much. I don't think you can get deep into the playoffs when you have a guy that short dominating the ball every possession. That is what I hate about PG-centric offenses and why I'm glad Quin doesn't run that ish. You don't want your shortest player dominating the ball too much.

I actually disagree with you, and so do the numbers. His usage% this season is 23.4% (which is basically the same as his career average of 23.7%), good for just 83rd in the league. As far as playoffs, his usage didn't really increase, yet in the playoffs he has a CAREER average of 20/10/4/3 on 47%/46%.

Also, I dont care how tall they are as long as they produce... while having the 83rd usage% in the NBA,cp3 has the 2nd highest offensive win shares this season (and is near the top every season), while still having a defensive winshare rating 3x higher than our current 6 ft pg, leading to the 3rd highest win shares overall in NBA. not to mention he's perpetually near the top of BsPM, VORP,ft%,fta (for pgs), etc. etc.

To deny how transformative he was for that franchise is ignorant. He took the team from 32-50 (.390) to 40-26 (.606) in his first year there, with a very similar lineup. My point was that I would trade for him, because it would likely have the same effect on our team (who is currently slated to win a similar number of games).

Not if we give up Gobert to get him. I don't think people realize how crazy it is that other teams are struggling to get out of the 80's every time we play. No other player in the NBA gives you that. Very few players in NBA history give you that.

i agree, however we struggle to get out of the 80s too, to me its more about point differential than defensive pts allowed, and it's my belief that our success would drastically change in the playoffs, as teams could game-plan for Gobert much more thoroughly, and would shut our offense down HARD with the lack of scoring options. As much as a love Gobert (and i do), i still think there are a small number of players who would benefit this team more. CP3 included.

 

[Hotdog]

I actually disagree with you, and so do the numbers. His usage% this season is 23.4% (which is basically the same as his career average of 23.7%), good for just 83rd in the league. As far as playoffs, his usage didn't really increase, yet in the playoffs he has a CAREER average of 20/10/4/3 on 47%/46%.

Also, I dont care how tall they are as long as they produce... while having the 83rd usage% in the NBA,cp3 has the 2nd highest offensive win shares this season (and is near the top every season), while still having a defensive winshare rating 3x higher than our current 6 ft pg, leading to the 3rd highest win shares overall in NBA. not to mention he's perpetually near the top of BsPM, VORP,ft%,fta (for pgs), etc. etc.

To deny how transformative he was for that franchise is ignorant. He took the team from 32-50 (.390) to 40-26 (.606) in his first year there, with a very similar lineup. My point was that I would trade for him, because it would likely have the same effect on our team (who is currently slated to win a similar number of games).





i agree, however we struggle to get out of the 80s too, to me its more about point differential than defensive pts scored, and it's my belief that our success would drastically change in the playoffs, as teams could game-plan for Gobert much more thoroughly, and would shut our offense down HARD with the lack of scoring options. As much as a love Gobert (and i do), i still think there are a small number of players who would benefit this team more. CP3 included.

Nah, what you are missing is that defense keeps you in games. No matter how bad our offense gets, we are always right there with a shot to win the game. When you are down 20 it can zap your energy and make you want to give up. If you are always close then you will always keep fighting.

Remember how many times we had to try and stage a comeback with the Boozer and Memo teams? It was an issue that always plagued that team because Boozer and Memo couldn't guard the paint. It wore on them to always have to try and come back.

Also, you can rely on a great defense alot more than you can rely on a great offense. It's a hell of a lot more consistent. You can always play defense. Sometimes shots just don't fall.


It would be idiotic to trade the best rim protector in the league (Rudy) for Chris Paul.

I guarantee we will go further into the playoffs than Chris Paul's teams ever have. That's in large part to having two bigs that can play outstanding defense.


Besides all that, Rudy is inept on offense. He's going to be a good offensive player. Watch.

 

[Hotdog]

Also, you can't game plan for Rudy's defense. It's just there. You can't say we just aren't going to go near him, well you can, but it's not going to do you any good. Because the wings will just stay close to you and not let you shoot outside shots.



Defense greatness over offense everyday of the week× a million

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Nah, what you are missing is that defense keeps you in games. No matter how bad our offense gets, we are always right there with a shot to win the game. When you are down 20 it can zap your energy and make you want to give up. If you are always close then you will always keep fighting.

Remember how many times we had to try and stage a comeback with the Boozer and Memo teams? It was an issue that always plagued that team because Boozer and Memo couldn't guard the paint. It wore on them to always have to try and come back.

Also, you can rely on a great defense alot more than you can rely on a great offense. It's a hell of a lot more consistent. You can always play defense. Sometimes shots just don't fall.


It would be idiotic to trade the best rim protector in the league (Rudy) for Chris Paul.

I guarantee we will go further into the playoffs than Chris Paul's teams ever have. That's in large part to having two bigs that can play outstanding defense.


Besides all that, Rudy is inept on offense. He's going to be a good offensive player. Watch.

Chris Paul had prime Tyson Chandler.

 

[jope]

Nah, what you are missing is that defense keeps you in games. No matter how bad our offense gets, we are always right there with a shot to win the game. When you are down 20 it can zap your energy and make you want to give up. If you are always close then you will always keep fighting.

Remember how many times we had to try and stage a comeback with the Boozer and Memo teams? It was an issue that always plagued that team because Boozer and Memo couldn't guard the paint. It wore on them to always have to try and come back.

Also, you can rely on a great defense alot more than you can rely on a great offense. It's a hell of a lot more consistent. You can always play defense. Sometimes shots just don't fall.


It would be idiotic to trade the best rim protector in the league (Rudy) for Chris Paul.

I guarantee we will go further into the playoffs than Chris Paul's teams ever have. That's in large part to having two bigs that can play outstanding defense.


Besides all that, Rudy is inept on offense. He's going to be a good offensive player. Watch.

I agree with some of that. however i feel that as elite as rudy is on defense, cp3 is as elite on offense, and the numbers back that up. The numbers also actually suggest that our team defense is the cause for our success, as when Rudy leaves we don't see much of a drop off at all in defensive rating.

 

[jope]

Also, you can't game plan for Rudy's defense. It's just there. You can't say we just aren't going to go near him, well you can, but it's not going to do you any good. Because the wings will just stay close to you and not let you shoot outside shots.



Defense greatness over offense everyday of the week× a million

draw Gobert to the perimeter every time (like a high 1-5 pr), and pump fake the hell out of him as he tries to recover.

 

[Hotdog]

draw Gobert to the perimeter every time (like a high 1-5 pr), and pump fake the hell out of him as he tries to recover.

He doesn't have to do that. He can switch. And Rudy isn't dumb. He's already looking good on playing that. He rarely goes for the pump fake.

Rudy's smarts is what makes him who he is. Lost of tall long guys have come through the league. I'm telling you, Rudy is really smart in the way he plays defense. It isn't just him blocking shots. He's making the right decision 99% of the time.

 

[Hotdog]

Chris Paul had prime Tyson Chandler.

And they were pretty good. He has Deandre Jordan now too. And that's why he's on good teams. Take them aways and they aren't very good.

Also, Rudy is a lot better defender than either one of them imo

 

[jope]

He doesn't have to do that. He can switch. And Rudy isn't dumb. He's already looking good on playing that. He rarely goes for the pump fake.

Rudy's smarts is what makes him who he is. Lost of tall long guys have come through the league. I'm telling you, Rudy is really smart in the way he plays defense. It isn't just him blocking shots. He's making the right decision 99% of the time.

im not saying he isnt. but there are ways to lessen his impact. my point is that, perhaps a team defensive scheme is more important than an individual in having defensive success. ALL the championship teams in the last 8 years were top 10 offenses, AND top 10 defenses. My thinking is that CP3 and good team defensive concepts (like we are already showing) can achieve that more practically than expecting rudy to take some huge jump on the offensive end

 

[Hotdog]

im not saying he isnt. but there are ways to lessen his impact. my point is that, perhaps a team defensive scheme is more important than an individual in having defensive success. ALL the championship teams in the last 8 years were top 10 offenses, AND top 10 defenses. My thinking is that CP3 and good team defensive concepts (like we are already showing) can achieve that more practically than expecting rudy to take some huge jump on the offensive end

Rudy IS a great great team defender. He's helping everyone out on defense. Hes making the whole team play better defense. It isn't like he just racking up blocks to pad his stats.

It's not about the blocks. It's how he's positioning himself and helping others.

 

[jope]

Rudy IS a great great team defender. He's helping everyone out on defense. Hes making the whole team play better defense. It isn't like he just racking up blocks to pad his stats.

It's not about the blocks. It's how he's positioning himself and helping others.

my point is that the numbers indicate that there isn't really much of a defensive drop off when he's on the bench. I anticipate that our defensive successes are related to team concepts and effort more than one individual (rudy), whereas offensive success CAN drastically change from one individual (cp3).

 

[Hotdog]

my point is that the numbers indicate that there isn't really much of a defensive drop off when he's on the bench. I anticipate that our defensive successes are related to team concepts and effort more than one individual (rudy), whereas offensive success CAN drastically change from one individual (cp3).

Damn man. I think you need to try an actually watch the game. Forget relying on analytics. That's really screwing you up if you think there is no difference between Rudy being on the bench and being in the game.

The proof is in the pudding. We are winning games and holding teams to less points. I'm not even sure what numbers you could possibly be looking at that suggest what you just said

 

[framer]

A few things.

Chris Paul is seven years older than Rudy Gobert, Imagine where Gobert is going to be in 7 years. Even if you like Paul more than Gobert, it can't be by much, and look at the headroom Gobert has.

Secondly, you can find more of the Chris Paul skillset than you can of the Rudy skillset. Offensive juggernauts at pg are actually pretty common. There are 10 or more in the league right now. How many Rudy Goberts are there? Maybe Hassan Whiteside? If you are being charitable. . .

Third, I want to cheer for Gobert, I love that dude, Paul is a flopping whiny little *****. He can be stopped. Hell Duhron used to punk him all the time. Who has really dominated Rudy? Who imposes their will on him offensively? Not Dirk, LA, Duncan, Gasol, etc. . .

In summation we can find scoring, we can't find anything close to what Rudy does, and CP3 is a *****.

 

[Farmer.Tan]

my point is that the numbers indicate that there isn't really much of a defensive drop off when he's on the bench. I anticipate that our defensive successes are related to team concepts and effort more than one individual (rudy)

Without looking at the numbers myself, I'll respond to this as if it were true..
We are absolutely getting better on defense as the year progresses. Especially when Rudy starts. I submit that his tenacious defense to start games is something that is contagious and infectious and gets things going defensively. So everyone catches on and plays up to the standard....set by his example....whether he is on the court or not.

 

[jope]

Damn man. I think you need to try an actually watch the game. Forget relying on analytics. That's really screwing you up if you think there is no difference between Rudy being on the bench and being in the game.

The proof is in the pudding. We are winning games and holding teams to less points. I'm not even sure what numbers you could possibly be looking at that suggest what you just said

watched every game. Im no saying he doesnt make a difference. he does, a big one in fact. But my overarching point is there are still guys out that i feel would make an even bigger difference.

 

[jope]

Without looking at the numbers myself, I'll respond to this as if it were true..
We are absolutely getting better on defense as the year progresses. Especially when Rudy starts. I submit that his tenacious defense to start games is something that is contagious and infectious and gets things going defensively. So everyone catches on and plays up to the standard....set by his example....whether he is on the court or not.

I havent looked at the numbers either. Just going by what Locke said in a recent podcast, that on our recent streth (last 8 or 9 games) that with him off the court we are still just as good defensively. I havent once argued that he isnt valuable. he is, extremely. my point is that there are still some guys out there who are more valuable than he, for this team, and that perhaps we would still be able to succeed defensively with them replacing him due to team concepts.

 

[Hotdog]

I havent looked at the numbers either. Just going by what Locke said in a recent podcast, that on our recent streth (last 8 or 9 games) that with him off the court we are still just as good defensively. I havent once argued that he isnt valuable. he is, extremely. my point is that there are still some guys out there who are more valuable than he, for this team, and that perhaps we would still be able to succeed defensively with them replacing him due to team concepts.

Welp, that explains it right there. You got your information from David Locke. The biggest tool in the industry. Even Greg Popavich went out of his way to let him know.


Really, analytics are a terrible place to start evaluating what is going on with a team or a player. They should always be taken with a giant grain of salt. They can be so misleading.

If this example doesn't prove it, then I don't know what will. There is absolutely no way we aren't better defensively with Rudy on the floor.

 

[Batman]

There is some major Koolaid drinking going on here. Look, Rudy is a very good player but I think taking him over Harden or Westbrook right now is insane. Look, its good to be excited but let's not over do it dudes. Rudy may never develop an offensive game. He's probably always going to be Tyson Chandler offensively.

 

[Zulu]

Cp3 is the PG version of George Karl... Both can win games, but not the games that really matter!!

 

[jope]

Cp3 is the PG version of George Karl... Both can win games, but not the games that really matter!!

George Karl at least made it to the finals. I'd be ecstatic with that result at this point.