Whistleblower allegations against LDS Church

[Zombie]

Yeah, that was a bit strong.


That said, I know non-believers tend to judge or dictate how believers should feel or do.

People who pay tithing are believers and are committed to a principal because they believe in it. I don't think non-believers get to tell them it's wrong.

I've been on both sides. When you believe, you believe. When you don't, you don't.

I don't disagree with JG, I just think her perspective is a lil tone-deaf to her mom's belief. Neither are wrong.

Don't know

Yeah I mean I don't disagree with this. I'm not trying to tell any believers how they should feel about any of this.

 

[MVP]

That said, I know non-believers tend to judge or dictate how believers should feel or do.

People who pay tithing are believers and are committed to a principal because they believe in it. I don't think non-believers get to tell them it's wrong.

I have no issue with tithing. I have an issue with big organization using land and building properties on it and not paying property taxes. Same as them using public services and not paying taxes. Lets say somebody breaks into church and steals something. Would church not call police? If they do and police comes in and does the job by investigating crime and eventually catching the robber and returning goods to Church - I have an issue with that as church did not pay to support police job via taxes - I did, and it is not fair. So, to make it fair, Churches should either pay taxes like everybody else or not receive any public services, or pay for the services on per use, hour, job, etc basis.

 

[Archie Moses]

I have no issue with tithing. I have an issue with big organization using land and building properties on it and not paying property taxes. Same as them using public services and not paying taxes. Lets say somebody breaks into church and steals something. Would church not call police? If they do and police comes in and does the job by investigating crime and eventually catching the robber and returning goods to Church - I have an issue with that as church did not pay to support police job via taxes - I did, and it is not fair. So, to make it fair, Churches should either pay taxes like everybody else or not receive any public services, or pay for the services on per use, hour, job, etc basis.

So is your issue with the church or the law?


If there were laws that would save me from taxes, trust me, I'd take advantage of it.


You would too.

 

[MVP]

So is your issue with the church or the law?


If there were laws that would save me from taxes, trust me, I'd take advantage of it.


You would to.

You are right, my issue is with the law. It is outdated and needs to be changed.

 

[Archie Moses]

You are right, my issue is with the law. It is outdated and needs to be changed.

I don't disagree.

 

[colton]

Yes, obviously people have different experiences than you do. Here's one of mine. My mother made very little in her lifetime, and she has to live solely on her small social security income (and the charity of her children). But she pays 10% tithing (which is ridiculous since she has already paid tithing on her social security withholdings in the past), fast offerings, any money we give her, and every other thing the church asks of her because of the promise of future rewards. She is too afraid not to, especially as she is 82 years old and believes she will be meeting her maker soon. So this excessively wealthy church is making her life incredibly difficult to manage, and she constantly worries about money. So yeah, I do have a bit of a gripe about it.

Really? I have never once in my life paid my tithing out of a sense of fear. I suspect your mom doesn't either, but of course I don't know her at all.

 

[colton]

My understanding is that all 50 states exempt churches from property taxes. You make this huge building for just particular type of people - like a club if you want to name it - you should be taxed property taxes. It is not public. Not for everybody. Why should it be tax exempt?
As far as donations - they can be looked at the same as tips. If waiters are taxed on their tips ( it is donation at the end, you are not obligated to tip a waiter and you can tip whatever you want) then why Churches are not taxed on donations? It is still their income and income should be taxed.

Thanks for clarifying. I'm sort of with you on the property taxes thing as long as you apply the same logic to all charities/similar entities. But I disagree completely as to the donations. Donating to a charity is not at all like giving tips, to me. Tips are very closely related to payment for services rendered. Donating to a church or charity in order to help them achieve their non-business-related mission is very different.

 

[Archie Moses]

Really? I have never once in my life paid my tithing out of a sense of fear. I suspect your mom doesn't either, but of course I don't know her at all.

This is a common fear tactic I hear or read a lot.

I was never pressured to pay tithing. I was always taught why I should and the blessings that came from it.

I always told my bishops I wasn't a full tithe payer and not one of them kept a temple recommend from me or made me feel bad - I told this to at least 10 dudes.


People make the church out to be so bad. I honestly don't get it.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

After reading some of this thread, and skimming the rest I have one though/question at this point.

How much of this vast wealth attributed to the church is in real estate, meaning land and building related? Temples, churches, fields, farms, storehouses, office buildings for employees, camps, historical sites, ranches, etc.?

I legit wonder, and my hunch is that a good portion of this number people are so up in arms about is tied to this.

I could be 100% wrong, but with doing zero research into it, that's my guess.

 

[MVP]

But I disagree completely as to the donations. Donating to a charity is not at all like giving tips, to me. Tips are very closely related to payment for services rendered. Donating to a church or charity in order to help them achieve their non-business-related mission is very different.

Maybe when it comes to LDS church. Yet we have thousands of other churches preachers living luxury life style, flying business class and indulging into all pleasures just because of tax exemptions. Doubt it can be called non-business related missions...I am kind of with you when it comes to monks and monasteries for example... I could see them as worthy tax exemptions ... not super rich organizations or those fraudulent preachers in possessions of millions of dollars.
Some good reads.
https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-47675301

https://stories.avvo.com/nakedlaw/b...hy-preachers-under-federal-investigation.html

 

[JazzGal]

Yeah, that was a bit strong.


That said, I know non-believers tend to judge or dictate how believers should feel or do.

People who pay tithing are believers and are committed to a principal because they believe in it. I don't think non-believers get to tell them it's wrong.

I've been on both sides. When you believe, you believe. When you don't, you don't.

I don't disagree with JG, I just think her perspective is a lil tone-deaf to her mom's belief. Neither are wrong.

Don't know

I don't tell my mom she is wrong because she is doing as she believes with her money. I'm not sure where you got that impression. I am also entitled to have an opinion about it and express it on a message board.

 

[bigb]

Yes, obviously people have different experiences than you do. Here's one of mine. My mother made very little in her lifetime, and she has to live solely on her small social security income (and the charity of her children). But she pays 10% tithing (which is ridiculous since she has already paid tithing on her social security withholdings in the past), fast offerings, any money we give her, and every other thing the church asks of her because of the promise of future rewards. She is too afraid not to, especially as she is 82 years old and believes she will be meeting her maker soon. So this excessively wealthy church is making her life incredibly difficult to manage, and she constantly worries about money. So yeah, I do have a bit of a gripe about it.

As far as I know, nobody has definitively said anything about paying tithing on social security. Technically, she hadn’t paid tithing on all of her social security. Just the portion withheld from her paychecks. Her employer then matched that. I know people who don’t pay tithing on it and still consider themselves to be worthy recommend holders. I know people who pay tithing on 50% of their social security check since they already paid on the other half. Obviously there are people who pay on all of it. My parents have decided not to pay on it until they have received the amount they personally contributed over the years and then pay on all of it (though as a business owner, it could be viewed that he technically contributed virtually all of it).
The point of that tl;dnr is that paying tithing on social security is a choice. It’s a decision she makes. You may say she’s doing it out of fear, but I doubt she feels that way (but I’ve never met her, so maybe). The other things you say she makes are another issue entirely and you may have a valid gripe.


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