Why I think being a Muslim is rational.

[AtheistPreacher]

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From : The Black Swordsman
To : AtheistPreacher
Date : 2012-04-06 00:34
Title : Re: Religion
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I'm sure you've heard before that if there is such a thing as objective mortality that there must be God or something like it to ground such objective mortality upon. Otherwise there would only be subjective mortality.

The bible teaches about heaven and hell right??? Then I came upon this.

Ecclesiastes 9:5-7

For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.
Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.
Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for God has already approved what you do

It seems going against the idea's of Heaven and Hell.

I believe in Heaven and Hell because I am a Muslim and by definition means I believe that Qur'an is true.

Do you believe in Reincarnation or think everything goes straight to Nirvana which is pretty much non existence right?

I always hear Nirvana is pretty much like the blowing out of a candle.

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From : AtheistPreacher
To : The Black Swordsman
Date : 2012-04-06 02:54
Title : Re: Religion
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I'm sure you've heard before that if there is such a thing as objective immortality that there must be God or something like it to ground such objective immortality upon. Otherwise there would only be subjective immortality.

That depends on what you mean by "objective immortality." It can refer to any number of things. It could refer to the simple fact that we're remembered by other human beings after we die, and thus continue to affect them, but that if the human race dies out, we really are gone forever in every way that matters. But yeah, the objective immortality I was talking about does require a God... if God is going to perfectly remember you, it follows that God must exist. I thought that was pretty clear.

But you want to say that subjective immortality could exist without God? Well, I suppose that's possible in the technical sense. I still don't believe there's any such thing.

The bible teaches about heaven and hell right??? Then I came upon this.

Ecclesiastes 9:5-7

For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.
Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.
Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for God has already approved what you do

It seems going against the idea's of Heaven and Hell.

First of all, I make no claims that the Bible doesn't contradict itself in places. I'm quite certain that it does... could even point you to a few places where it contradicts itself. But then, I'm not a Christian, so I really don't care. Then again, I'm also sure there are any number of Christians who have thought about this stuff who would be able to give you an explanation of how that passage can be interpreted so as to square it with everything else. People have made careers out creating rationalizations for these sorts of "problems."

Second of all, the Qur'an has lots of contradictions.

I believe in Heaven and Hell because I am a Muslim and by definition means I believe that Qur'an is true.

That all depends on what you think it means to be a Muslim. For example, there are some Christians who think all you need to be a Christian is to follow the moral teachings of Jesus. Others think that believing Jesus was the literal son of God is required. Others think that you must also believe that Mary was a virgin, or that Paul saw God going to Damascus. Some believe you need to think the entire Bible is literally true.

Not meaning to offend you, but in my opinion, people who think they need to believe every little detail in some old book is absolutely true -- whether it be the Bible or the Qur'an or some other holy book -- are missing the point. Those books are the wisdom of the time. It would be really nice if Muhammad had solved all our problems and answered all our questions 1,300 years ago, but he just didn't. The world has evolved. For instance, we have a whole new ecological crisis. We're using up resources faster than the earth can produce them. We're destroying our forests, our species, our ozone layer. These simply were not things anyone had even considered 1,300 years ago.

Plus, social morality has evolved. I mean, both the Bible and the Qur'an talk about slavery as if it isn't a big deal, yet now we abhor the idea. Both books also treat women like second-class citizens, like men are just better. Do you think men are inherently superior to women, and that it's okay to own slaves? I hope not.

However, could not those passages be taken to be revelations of God's wisdom in the social context at the time? Of God working to better things, of solving the problems of the day? And couldn't those passages take on a new meaning as we read them today in our own context? In others words, couldn't those passages contain metaphorical truth, rather than be literally true? I think this is a perfectly reasonable position for Christians and Muslims to take, and many of them take just such a position. You really don't have to believe that every little thing in the Qur'an is literally true to be a Muslim. You can have an original thought. You can evolve. That's what people and societies do.

Do you believe in Reincarnation or think everything goes straight to Nirvana which is pretty much non existence right?

I always hear Nirvana is pretty much like the blowing out of a candle.

No, I don't believe in reincarnation, for most of the same reasons that I don't believe in the Christian/Islamic concept of afterlife.

Continued in next PM...

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From : AtheistPreacher
To : The Black Swordsman
Date : 2012-04-06 02:59
Title : Re: Religion
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...Continued from last PM

A few other things about "believing the Qur'an is true."

Now, I may be ascribing beliefs to you that you don't actually hold, but my sense in talking to you is that you may subscribe to an argument like this:

-There is such a thing as salvation/heaven (and possibly hell)
-The Qur'an is the true word of God.
-It is necessary to believe in the Qur'an in order to be saved.

Now again, maybe you don't believe this. I'm not sure. I'm just guessing based on some of the others things you've said. But I have heard Christians make this sort of argument before with the Bible, so I want to share a few thoughts on it regardless.

The fact is, there are people in lonely corners of the world who will never encounter Islam. They might be deep in a jungle away from civilzation... or whatever. But especially in the past centuries before air travel and such, there were just people who never had any exposure to Islam at all -- they lived and died without it. That's a fact.

Now, if the above argument is true, that means that those people couldn't have been saved. So they must be in hell (or at least not in heaven).

Here's the thing: if this is the case, then I think the God is describes is just a huge @sshole. I mean, why would you refuse to save someone just because -- purely by chance -- he never encountered the one true religion? I mean, this God is supposed to be all-powerful, right? He could make it happen. But on this view, God is apparently mean, and petty, and angry, and bitter. If that's the case, then I'm really not sure why people would worship this God.

And as soon as you accept the idea that, in fact, God isn't a petty @sshole, and wouldn't send people to hell just because they've been born in the wrong place, then you have to accept that the Qur'an actually isn't totally essential. You can be saved without it. And as soon as you accept that, then it starts to become about how you act, and not which book you carry under your arm.

Actions, not words, are what's really important... how we live our lives. You can be a good person without believing in the Qur'an, or without believing in the Bible, or whatever book it may be. Isn't how we act more important than believing the events in some old book are true?

Also, how are the world's religions ever going to be able to talk to each other if all of them insist that everyone believe everything they say? That's the very definition of not having a conversation, and not being open to new things. That's talking without listening. Unless we're able to admit that some of our beliefs may be wrong, and that, in fact, parts of our holy books may be wrong, then why even bother talking?

Again, apologies if I've ascribed beliefs to you that you do not hold. But you see my point: the books really aren't so important next to how we act. And fixating on whether the books are true or not tends to just distract us from what's really important.

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From : The Black Swordsman
To : AtheistPreacher
Date : 2012-04-06 04:00
Title : Re: Religion
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I believe in pretty literal version of Qur'an. Because the Bible says many things like "flying creatures came first, then land creatures" or something like that or Eve was created from Adam's Rib. Also it says Noah's Flood was over the whole world and this is known to be not true.

For this reason many Christians say "Noah's flood was metaphor for baptizing the whole world" or something along those lines. Also some say Devil is metaphor for evils of world etc. Whats the limit? Why can't you say that God was a metaphor for the universe then?

Adam and Eve's story in Qur'an can be fully reconciled with evolution in the Qur'an. Noah's flood was a local flood and all the innocents in the area were with him as well.

In Islam, everyone with even an Atom's (back then there was the concept of Atom) worth of faith in God will eventually go to Heaven.

The only sin Allah won't forgive is performing Shirk (associating partners with Allah) in spite of knowing that Allah is the one and true God. You have to know that Allah is all powerful and the one true God and do it in spite of that.

https://quran.com/33/35

"Indeed, the Muslim men and Muslim women, the believing men and believing women, the obedient men and obedient women, the truthful men and truthful women, the patient men and patient women, the humble men and humble women, the charitable men and charitable women, the fasting men and fasting women, the men who guard their private parts and the women who do so, and the men who remember Allah often and the women who do so - for them Allah has prepared forgiveness and a great reward."

wikiislam.net is a site run almost entirely on zionest jews
answering-muslim.org is run by entirely by evangelized Christians

Muslimwiki.com is the pro muslim version of the the former and answering-christianity.com is the counter to the former quoting each article on the website individually and refuting them.

the two anti Islamic sites are bias and shamelessly change translations. I remember in a debate between Sam Shoumen (from the christian site) was debating with shabir ally and didn't even mention most of the stuff on the his site because of the counters to it. Of course I am biased.

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From : AtheistPreacher
To : The Black Swordsman
Date : 2012-04-06 12:34
Title : Re: Religion
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Whatever, dude. I suppose you can believe whatever you want about the Qur'an being literally true. As I said, you can rationalize anything if you work hard enough at it. I've seen Christians do the exact same thing.

But as I've said over and over: I really don't want to argue about whether the Qur'an or the Bible is true, because I just don't care. Fact is, there are many religions out there that claim to have a book that is the single, true, holy word of God (Christianity, Islam, LDS, etc), and you can't believe them all. At most, you can only believe one. And which one you choose to believe is pretty much arbitrary. I'm guessing your parents are Muslim... and if your parents were Christian, you'd probably be a Christian, and be ready to leap to the defense of Bible passages in the same way you're doing for the Qur'an.

So in any case, please refrain from arguing further about the Qur'an. You're not going to win me over on that score.

Sadly, I'm not sure this conversation is really getting anywhere. You seem more inclined to evangelize for Islam than to actually listen to anyone else... for instance, you apparently have nothing to say about the voluminous postings that I linked for you. As I've responded very carefully to all your messages point-by-point, I'd expect you'd extend me the courtesy of actually engaging with what I have to say seriously... like commenting, responding, or refuting some of the posts I've made. If you're not willing to do that, to actually reciprocate a bit, then I don't see how further conversation is going to be helpful for either of us.

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From : The Black Swordsman
To : AtheistPreacher
Date : 2012-04-06 12:50
Title : Re: Religion
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Whaat?

You asked me about Literal or metaphorical interpretation of Qur'an. Or at least the fixation or lack of fixation on the text.

You asked me about the destiny of unevangelized. The Qur'an says people who reject the Qur'an out of ego are the ones that go to Hell. Like a red Indian who never heard of Qur'an isn't accountable.

I'm saying it isn't only Muslims that go to heaven. By saying that I am trying to convert you now?

Also, I was raised Lutheran. I converted to Islam.

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From : AtheistPreacher
To : The Black Swordsman
Date : 2012-04-06 13:03
Title : Re: Religion
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You asked me about Literal or metaphorical interpretation of Qur'an. Or at least the fixation or lack of fixation on the text.

You asked me about the destiny of unevangelized. The Qur'an says people who reject the Qur'an out of ego are the ones that go to Hell. Like a red Indian who never heard of Qur'an isn't accountable.

I'm saying it isn't only Muslims that go to heaven.

Yes. I understood you. Although I still find the whole concept of heaven repulsive, for reasons I've given you.

Also, I was raised Lutheran. I converted to Islam.

Fair enough. That doesn't change the fact that I don't find your Qur'anic arguments compelling, nor that you haven't told me why Islam is such a positive force, beyond the fact that it claims to be a path to salvation (which many others claim). As I've said repeatedly, I'm really not interested on discussion on why Holy Book X is true. I'd prefer to know how Islam is a positive force in this world, which you have yet to say one word about. On the other hand...

By saying that I am trying to convert you now?

Seems pretty obvious to me, as you again have failed to respond to a direct request of mine to engage the posts that I linked to. Apparently you talking about your faith to me is more important than commenting on the information I've given to you. If I had PMed you about my beliefs, and then refused to give comment on anything you said, how exactly would you interpret that?

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From : The Black Swordsman
To : AtheistPreacher
Date : 2012-04-06 13:14
Title : Re: Religion
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Ok first of all sorry, I didn't mean to try to convert. When you said you find Heaven repulsive I didn't take what you said and thought "Oh he said something in my religion is repulsive, is trying to turn me into an Atheist or deist or nontheist."

I understand that is your point of view. :/

Also you ask about how can there be an All Merciful God and All loving when there is a such a thing as hell.

On answering a question like this I can only answering it from the point of view from a Muslim. Muslims see it as what we believe while others see it as apologetic's no different from other religions.

Real quickly: A muslim perspective on that question is that there are 99 names of God, he isn't the Christian all loving God only. It also says in the God is not unjust in the least degree and has to repay people for sins etc.

I can speak from a neutral nonpersonal God or a Deist perspective if you want. But I think that is sorta what you are right?

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From : AtheistPreacher
To : The Black Swordsman
Date : 2012-04-06 13:58
Title : Re: Religion
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*sigh*

Do you not see that we're going around in circles? You've made these points about heaven and hell before, I answered, and now you're asserting them again.

Muslims see it as what we believe while others see it as apologetic's no different from other religions.

The problem with asserting something and saying, "Well, I'm a Muslim, it's just what I believe" doesn't give me any reasons. I could tell you that I thought the moon was made of blue cheese, and you could think I'm wrong, but if I refused to tell you why I believed the moon was made of blue cheese, you couldn't refute me, because you wouldn't know the reasons I have for believing it. Likewise, i can't possibly refute your belief that heaven and hell exist if you give me no reason beyond "I just do because I'm a Muslim." That's not an answer. It's the same as saying "I believe the moon is made of blue cheese because I just do."

Now, the only thing you've given me in this post that can count as a reason for believing in heaven and hell (which I both find equally repulsive) is this:

God... has to repay people for sins etc.

...and I have already responded to this. To quote myself from my 11:54pm PM to you:

If we're all just waiting to die to get on with our "afterlife," then what we do here in the world doesn't really seem to matter, does it? The heaven-hell concept is even worse, because it reduces this world to the status of merely a test. Talk about dehumanizing... on this view we only do good actions to get a post-mortem reward, and the world doesn't actually matter. It assumes that people are basically bad and need to be rewarded or punished by God for our behavior. But I don't do the right things because God tells me to... I do them because they're right.

Once again you have ignored my posts that I pointed you to. But if you're not at least going to try to refute a point like the one I've made above (again) with a reason of your own, then why continue talking? And when I say "reason," I mean not just "because the Qur'an says so." Because, for the umpteenth time, I don't really care in what book it's written -- it just has to make sense. And right now I've given you reasons why I think the whole idea of heaven and hell is repulsive. Kindly tell me where I'm wrong.

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From : The Black Swordsman
To : AtheistPreacher
Date : 2012-04-06 14:49
Title : Re: Religion
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Sorry I deleted my entire Inbox to make room :/

I mean it always goes down to this man.

A Muslim gives his reasons for believing.

An non Muslim says those reason's aren't good enough for him.

The same can be done for other religions.

I obviously believe there is better reasons to believe in Islam as compared to those other religions and other religions think the same.

Not much else to comment.

Also in a previous post I noticed that I accidently said "objective immortality"

I meant to say "objective morality."

You say that life as a test is dehumanizing and you do the right thing because it is right. You believe these things because they are subjective to you. If you believe it is objectively right then what is the grounding on this objectivity?

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From : AtheistPreacher
To : The Black Swordsman
Date : 2012-04-06 15:03
Title : Re: Religion
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A Muslim gives his reasons for believing.

An non Muslim says those reason's aren't good enough for him.

The same can be done for other religions.

I obviously believe there is better reasons to believe in Islam as compared to those other religions and other religions think the same.

Not much else to comment.

I continue to give reason, and you continue to refuse to try to counter my arguments when I make them. Just repeat yourself again, and say -- in so many words -- "because I just believe it."

I'm ending this "conversation." It's not going anywhere, just wasting my time that I need to be spending writing term papers.

As to your final question, if you'd read the posts I've been continually pointing you to, you'd know. But it's abundantly apparent that you have no interest in doing that.

I'll recommend you read this book as a final parting thought.

Now I need to go clear out my own inbox. It's got over 40 messages in it now.

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From : The Black Swordsman
To : AtheistPreacher
Date : 2012-04-06 15:28
Title : Re: Religion
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I get you.

The one last thing though I never said I believe things simply because I must believe.

I believe them because they are written in the Qur'an and because of other things written in the Qur'an, I rationally believe there is no naturalistic explanation for the Qur'an.

I believe there is afterlife because it is written in the Qur'an. I believe the Qur'an because I think it is a Miracle, an act of impossibility. You don't believe it is an act of impossibility I get that.

You think I didn't address your arguments. I don't think your answered my arguments. You simply generalized Islam as any other religion and applied those generalizations towards Islam.

Last post from me.

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From : AtheistPreacher
To : The Black Swordsman
Date : 2012-04-06 15:44
Title : Re: Religion
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I get you.

The one last thing though I never said I believe things simply because I must believe.

I believe them because they are written in the Book of Blue Moon Cheese and because of other things written in the Book of Blue Moon Cheese, I rationally believe there is no naturalistic explanation for the Book of Blue Moon Cheese.

I believe there is afterlife because it is written in the Book of Blue Moon Cheese. I believe the Book of Blue Moon Cheese because I think it is a Miracle, an act of impossibility. You don't believe it is an act of impossibility I get that.

You think I didn't address your arguments. I don't think your answered my arguments. You simply generalized The Religion of Why the Moon is made of Blue Cheese as any other religion and applied those generalizations towards The Religion of Why the Moon is made of Blue Cheese.

Last post from me.

The above is my response back to you. I've edited it slightly, as you can see. I generalize because it works, mine just as well as yours. All it says is "the book is true because the book says it's true!" That gives me no reason to believe Islam over the Book of Blue Moon Cheese.

Hence why this conversation is going nowhere.

Have a nice life...

 

[GVC]

What interests me in religion is what it tells us about meaning in life, and about how to make life better. That's something science can't do. Empirical facts can't tell us why life is meaningful, nor how to make more happy and fulfilled human communities. These things require going beyond the facts to a philosophy of life.

So when I look at a religion, I look for what it can teach me about these things. You say The Qur'an predicted all sorts of scientific truths. Besides me not believing that it actually did, my response would be: Umm, okay. Big "who cares?" I'd rather hear what Islam has to say about what God is like, why life is meaningful, how we can create better societies, etc.

Bingo. I refuse to believe that the purpose of life is to search for the one true book sent to us by the one true god. If this is what God is most concerned with, he isn't worthy of my worship.

So, TBS, what does the Qur'an "say about what God is like, why life is meaningful, how we can create better societies, etc."?

 

[The Black Swordsman]

What God is like : God has 99 names, each one describes God. Like the wise, the king, the merciful etc. Additionally Qur'an says in 112 :"Allah is one, the eternal, he neither begets nor was he born and there is nothing like him"

Meaning of Life: Appreciate life and the one who gave you life for life is a debt from God that you can never repay.

Better societies: Muhammad (PBUH) was famous for saying that for every disease there is a cure so go and find the cure. Many similar stuff in Bible like feed neighbor etc. It is very similar to Mormonism as giving charity is very important. Also Qur'an prohibits interest. Islamic Banks use a rent system a little bit different but similar to Interest. Another Muhammad(PBUH) quote was "the ink of a Scholar is more important then the blood of a martyr"

 

[GVC]

So...God is awesome, appreciate life, be good to each other and go learn.

Why is the proof so much more important than the content to you?

 

[The Black Swordsman]

Well extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. 1/5 of the Qur'an is science, that means 4/5 is not about science. I just mention the science stuff because that is the stuff that people often use to turn away form religions. I don't want to mention specifics from other religions but the test of Science is something that I think makes the Qur'an unique over other religions.

I mean this thread was the attempt to explain my rationality of the existence of God. I never said that it is more important then the teachings.

 

[GVC]

I mean this thread was the attempt to explain the rationality of the existence of God.

I'm referring to your dialogue with AP, which is, ostensibly at least, about why you're Muslim.

The reason I am Muslim is because I believe there are no naturalistic explanations of the Qur'an. 1/5th the Qur'an is about science and NONE of it is false. This is something that cannot be said about other other religions.

As AP asked, so what? What is it about Islam that is so attractive? Why should I want to be Muslim?

 

[The Black Swordsman]

Qur'an 33:35
"Indeed, the Muslim men and Muslim women, the believing men and believing women, the obedient men and obedient women, the truthful men and truthful women, the patient men and patient women, the humble men and humble women, the charitable men and charitable women, the fasting men and fasting women, the men who guard their private parts and the women who do so, and the men who remember Allah often and the women who do so - for them Allah has prepared forgiveness and a great reward"

So you follow this more and receive more reward in the afterlife.

Next everyone's response is "I don't believe in Afterlife" or "why should I believe this God and not Zeus or Shiva"

This is where I say because of the miraculous nature of the Qur'an and there are good reasons to believe it is from the divine hence my first post.

 

[GVC]

So you follow this more and receive more reward in the afterlife.

So I should be Muslim so I can get more goodies after I die? That's your pitch? Fear God!?

No thanks.

 

[The Black Swordsman]

I don't want to be standing on the shoulders of giants but Isaac Newton said it best with "there is a being who made all things & has all things in his power & who is therfore to be feared."

It may not be for everyone but it is for me. The title isn't "only an idiot wouldn't be Muslim."

Good Luck in life!

 

[AtheistPreacher]

I'm referring to your dialogue with AP, which is, ostensibly at least, about why you're Muslim.

As AP asked, so what? What is it about Islam that is so attractive? Why should I want to be Muslim?

So I should be Muslim so I can get more goodies after I die? That's your pitch? Fear God!?

No thanks.

Had to say, GVC, I was impressed you read through enough of that mess to pull out a line of mine that you liked.

But yeah, this is pretty much the impasse that we reached. I kept telling him that a lot of religions promise post-mortem metaphysical doggy treats, and that there must be some reason beyond that why one would want to be a Muslim. But he still hasn't told me why in any way I understand.

 

[addictionary]

thank you for sharing your thoughts. although, I don't think there's any necessity to prove anything to anyone when it comes to religions, because they're based on beliefs which is a subjective matter. those scientific notes about the holy book don't hold no special meaning to people -as some have stated- who live in a time that already gone most of it through. I think the best thing about Islam and Kur'an-ı Kerîm is that it allows the individual to choose his fate by his/her own freewill. It does not cover every corner to leave the questions answered clearly, so that it requires "faith" in order to "feel" what it is talking about. information is based on empirical findings. faith is based on it's own. that is why, anything about faith cannot be proved through materialistic methods. that is what I believe. that is why I was so proud and happy as I was reading though your first post, and that is also why I was already expecting the different levels of disapprovals that came right after.

religions are meant to be the "ways" to lead humanity to the right way. I hope everyone finds his/her right way in life before passing, whether through Islam or some other way.

 

[Crittercam]