Another blow to homeopathy

[jimmy eat jazz]

I agree that Dalamon's impartiality on this subject is ridiculous. But he is right that no researcher would touch it. Why would they? Would astronomers request funding for astrology? Millions of people believe in that too. Would chemists research money for alchemy? No, because it's nonsense. Same applies to homeopathy. It is rightfully ignored.

Apparently at least 225 researchers would, judging from the link provided at the beginning of this thread. Although I'm sure they are of varying quality.

I'm not quite sure the basis for the argument that homeopathy is such nonsense that no one would even consider researching it, when it appears that there are at least 225 studies doing just that.

Astrology and homeopathy are not equivalent. Medical research investigates any number of alternative medicines for efficacy. Here's one journal devoted entirely to this topic: https://www.liebertpub.com/overview/journal-of-alternative-and-complementary-medicine-the/26/ (on quick browse it appears legit, but can't say for certain). There are several other journals devoted to this topic, but I don't have time to vet them all for scientific legitimacy.

At the same time, supporters of homeopathy, if they truly believe it works, have strong incentives to demonstrate its efficacy via legit medical research. They have not.

 

[Siro]

Apparently at least 225 researchers would, judging from the link provided at the beginning of this thread. Although I'm sure they are of varying quality.

I'm not quite sure the basis for the argument that homeopathy is such nonsense that no one would even consider researching it, when it appears that there are at least 225 studies doing just that.

Astrology and homeopathy are not equivalent. Medical research investigates any number of alternative medicines for efficacy. Here's one journal devoted entirely to this topic: https://www.liebertpub.com/overview/journal-of-alternative-and-complementary-medicine-the/26/ (on quick browse it appears legit, but can't say for certain). There are several other journals devoted to this topic, but I don't have time to vet them all for scientific legitimacy.

At the same time, supporters of homeopathy, if they truly believe it works, have strong incentives to demonstrate its efficacy via legit medical research. They have not.

And thousands of papers have investigated ESP. There is no mass belief that hasn't been studied one way or another. But as a scientist, I would **** my pants in shock if a colleague asks for grant money to study homeopathy. Of course a quick Google search shows that it has been studied somewhat.

The point is, homeopathy is NOT different than astrology. Why would it be? There is no possible scientific basis for either. Homeopathy started out as purely mystical, but some practitioners have lately begun using pseudoscience to legitimize it. But even the modern attempts at scientific legitimacy does not provide any possible mechanisms. The concept of "memory of water molecules" is not supported in science. Other approaches like "quantum teleportation of molecules" are about as interesting as spiritualists asking us to get in touch with our quantum self.

But at the end of the day you're right. If you think you can get (not you you) homeopathy to work, show us the evidence.

 

[Deleted member 848]

I agree that Dalamon's impartiality on this subject is ridiculous. But he is right that no researcher would touch it. Why would they? Would astronomers request funding for astrology? Millions of people believe in that too. Would chemists research money for alchemy? No, because it's nonsense. Same applies to homeopathy. It is rightfully ignored.

It's not impartiality, it's merely openness to all possibilities.

Right now I wouldn't bother taking a homeopathic drug if it had no evidence of treating capabilities (hence, I take none). I don't feel a large need to slander the entire field, as I have looked at each and every single proposed mechanism of action & the science of homeopathy is not monolithic (just like many other sciences out there. I'm a stickler for distinguishing between "as far as we know, this doesn't really help us" from "homeopathy is hogwash pseudoscience".



In response to Jimmy-- I'm currently doing an Honours Thesis in an Oncology lab at the University of Alberta, dealing with designing fusogenic liposomes that can exploit an over-expressed receptor in prostate cancer in efforts to treat cancer cells/tumor tissue with specificity.


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[TroutBum]

I agree that Dalamon's impartiality on this subject is ridiculous. But he is right that no researcher would touch it. Why would they? Would astronomers request funding for astrology? Millions of people believe in that too. Would chemists research money for alchemy? No, because it's nonsense. Same applies to homeopathy. It is rightfully ignored.

There is a lot of funding for alchemy, tbh.

In response to Jimmy-- I'm currently doing an Honours Thesis in an Oncology lab at the University of Alberta, dealing with designing fusogenic liposomes that can exploit an over-expressed receptor in prostate cancer in efforts to treat cancer cells/tumor tissue with specificity.

That is the kind of statement that kept me out of college for over a decade. That's scary ****, man.

 

[Deleted member 848]

That is the kind of statement that kept me out of college for over a decade. That's scary ****, man.

It isn't. If I explained it to you in person, you'd understand it 100% as well as I do.

If someone isn't understanding a scientific phenomenon, it's because the person who's explaining it isn't explaining it properly.

 

[babe]

There is a lot of funding for alchemy, tbh.



That is the kind of statement that kept me out of college for over a decade. That's scary ****, man.

That's pretty astute for your knowledge/education level. If you defined alchemy as the study of transmutation of elements, as how to turn lead into gold, for example, there's currently some valid research going on in the field of LENR, or cold fusion, which is turning up evidence of similar transformations.

And for Game, how do I know? I read a lot on that topic, and hope to set up some experiments myself. I know some people in that research and they will talk to me.

I'm willing to do some things a lot of people wouldn't. It cuts into my party time though.

 

[Gameface]

That's pretty astute for your knowledge/education level. If you defined alchemy as the study of transmutation of elements, as how to turn lead into gold, for example, there's currently some valid research going on in the field of LENR, or cold fusion, which is turning up evidence of similar transformations.

And for Game, how do I know? I read a lot on that topic, and hope to set up some experiments myself. I know some people in that research and they will talk to me.

I'm willing to do some things a lot of people wouldn't. It cuts into my party time though.

Sorry, I'm gonna have to step out of this thread for a while. I'm going to be busy giving serious consideration to the existence of leprechauns and poking around a bit on the far side of rainbows. Gotta keep an open mind!

 

[babe]

If I were to be so reckless as to write a proposal for a research project on homeopathy, I'd have to review all the failed work, the failed definitions of the subject, and find a solid theoretical foundation for what I propose to test, and explain in terms of known and accepted scientific principles why I think it could work. . . .and then I'd need to design an experiment capable of testing that specific hypothesis.

In my reading thus far on the subject, I've found nothing like that. I might hazard anopinion that few if any good scientists have cared to try.

The 1796 theory, in the context of the times, found a large number of people frustrated with pretty damaging treatments,who were just all to happy to have some other hope. I'm certain it's appeal today isn't much different. I know or knew some people who'd rather just go home and die than do chemo. I worked as an undergraduate work-study tech in the lab that developed some chemo drugs. I used to do the library research for the researchers, so I read everything being published at that time, and I did some of the reading of papers submitted to the researchers for peer review prior to publication.

My issue with some comments in this thread is simply my insistence on good research rather than avid acceptance of substandard research. And besides, it's simply got to be a person's own choice in some personal matters.

And I've sat by the bedside of one friend who died of cancer, who would not listen to me, while quacks fluttered around with their ignorant potions. My own wife would not listen to me, either. They were deeply religious. My wife asked for a blessing, and she's alive. She did the chemo and the radiation. I kept my mouth shut and that's what she decided.

The friend died, and she took no pain melds either. A lot of well-meaning people gave blessings in the name of God. I wouldn't say they were in vain because she went down to her grave with amazing personal courage and even peace. I think she loved her deceased husband, and really felt like it was just time to "go home".

Part of my argument here is the point that personal choices are a human right. If you know better than someone else, see if you can show them your reasons, but remember if you come across as taking away their choice, you'll have a harder time of it.

 

[babe]

Sorry, I'm gonna have to step out of this thread for a while. I'm going to be busy giving serious consideration to the existence of leprechauns and poking around a bit on the far side of rainbows. Gotta keep an open mind!

Well in my opinion, you got off on the wrong foot in this thread , maybe a continuation from the marathon "hoax" adventure.

I usually just ignore sarcasm, but I've made an effort here to elicit a higher level of respect . I don't actually believe in fairy tales or frauds, but I will seek whatever facts there may be. The existence of very small human adults is well-documented, from thirty to one thousand years ago, in Ireland. i think that fact suggests the legends, folklore and fairy tales may have arisen from some factual experiences with very small humans while the two varieties of humans co-existed.

Ido quite often come across to some as a pompous, intolerable smarty, avoiding the obvious filter offenses in the term I choose for that.

Believe me, I push the limits on polite manners and arrogance on purpose sometimes, and laugh about it all. I think it's fun to be provocative. But I don't fundamentally believe I'm much smarter than anyone, and I'm interested in what other people have to say.

Sorry if I have offended you. I think that's what you must be feeling..

 

[TroutBum]

I'm also offended.












By your face.

 

[VINYLONE]

I don't know if it is technically homeopathy, but I use chamomile tea for anxiety and it helped me eliminate a pill.

I think in some circles this WOULD be considered homeopathy unless I am mistaken. That being said, couldn't the chemical makeup of said tea have effects on the body? That to me is science with a capital S? No?

 

[VINYLONE]

I'm also offended.




By your face.

The irony of this post is overwhelming. It might have something to do with your likeness to Rocky Dennis.

 

[babe]

I think in some circles this WOULD be considered homeopathy unless I am mistaken. That being said, couldn't the chemical makeup of said tea have effects on the body? That to me is science with a capital S? No?

A lot of herbal remedies haven't been proven by research, regardless of containing, at low levels, substances with known and proven effects. Pharmaceutical companies extract or synthesize such ingredients, and peddle them in higher doses, and so their compounds are not pseudoscience.

But the herbal potions are.

Sometimes it seems to me that the difference between acceptable medicines and bogus treatments, in the eyes of the FDA, is a patentable presentation.

 

[babe]

The irony of this post is overwhelming. It might have something to do with your likeness to Rocky Dennis.

But trout has seen my face, and his reaction is actually objective science.

 

[VINYLONE]

Sometimes it seems to me that the difference between acceptable medicines and bogus treatments, in the eyes of the FDA, is a patentable presentation.

Yeah, this seems like an accurate statement.

 

[TroutBum]

The irony of this post is overwhelming. It might have something to do with your likeness to Rocky Dennis.

And I still eat more feline than you. What are you doing with your life, Dick?

But trout has seen my face, and his reaction is actually objective science.

My Opinion > Science

 

[VINYLONE]

And I still eat more feline than you. What are you doing with your life, Dick?

I'm genuinely happy for you. It goes to show you that there's someone for everyone out there.


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[TroutBum]

I'm genuinely happy for you. It goes to show you that there's someone for everyone out there.


This electronic post has been constructed, arranged and transmitted via an Apple branded communication device using the Tapatalk application.

Stop dodging the question, Dick.

 

[VINYLONE]

Stop dodging the question, Dick.

Dodging? I thought you were trolling.

I'm doing what most everyone else is doing. Just trying to get the most out of it. I've been hiking/ camping a lot lately and kind of getting back into firearms. How about you? How's the insurance biz?

 

[TroutBum]

Dodging? I thought you were trolling.

I'm doing what most everyone else is doing. Just trying to get the most out of it. I've been hiking/ camping a lot lately and kind of getting back into firearms. How about you? How's the insurance biz?

Your response wasn't/isn't very fun. I'm done with this topic.