LDS General Conference - Apr 2015

[seattlejazzfan]

That ummm....that doesn't sound doctrinally correct to me. I'm not entirely familiar with Mormons, but I do believe that they require belief in Jesus for salvation. That's certainly what the Bible (which they believe) teaches.

Keep in mind, while I am all in as a Mormon, I'm very much a heterodox believer, so not all - er, most Mo's wouldn't agree with me on a lot of stuff. Remember, I said "IMO".

That being said, even under traditional Mormon doctrine, there is always the out that dudes can still come around in terms of accepting or believing after this life.

 

[VINYLONE]

That being said, even under traditional Mormon doctrine, there is always the out that dudes can still come around in terms of accepting or believing after this life.

So that begs the question, "If I'm a non-believing ******* throughout my whole life here on earth but then I accept the lord into my heart in the afterlife, then I am good to go?"

 

[seattlejazzfan]

So that begs the question, "If I'm a non-believing ******* throughout my whole life here on earth but then I accept the lord into my heart in the afterlife, then I am good to go?"

You're asking the wrong person. I'll let Jesus decide on that ****.

 

[RandyForRubio]

So that begs the question, "If I'm a non-believing ******* throughout my whole life here on earth but then I accept the lord into my heart in the afterlife, then I am good to go?"

I think a family member has to save you or something? I'm not sure...good question!

 

[RandyForRubio]

You're asking the wrong person. I'll let Jesus decide on that ****.

He's asking what the Mormon doctrine regarding it is...I think? Otherwise yes, I agree...it is not our place to judge on whether people are saved or not, although there typically are very good indications if they are or aren't.

 

[seattlejazzfan]

He's asking what the Mormon doctrine regarding it is...I think? Otherwise yes, I agree...it is not our place to judge on whether people are saved or not, although there typically are very good indications if they are or aren't.

Honestly, based on what I've learned in my 40+ years as a Mormon, it's that Christ is the judge. That's all I got. Maybe colton or somebody can chime in.

 

[Gameface]

?

Dumb joke, man. Dumb joke.

Jesus is a communist. I thought everyone already knew that.

 

[TroutBum]

Honestly, based on what I've learned in my 40+ years as a Mormon, it's that Christ is the judge. That's all I got. Maybe colton or somebody can chime in.

Colton is too biased, IMO. Give me some Duck Rogers and maybe a dash of Conan if you want some straight talk.

 

[LogGrad98]

Mormons believe everyone will have an opportunity to accept the gospel and the divinity of Jesus whether in this life or the next. However we also believe that your take with you what you have gained in this life, which refers to knowledge, wisdom, attitude, biases, etc. So if you leave this life as an ******* you will be an ******* in the next. It might have some bearing on whether or not you will be willing to accept the truth when you hear it. And regardless of upbringing in this life Mormons also believe everyone is born with the "light of Christ" or an inborn conscience that help us to innately know wrong from right at a basic level, and if you go against that light it is a sin same as if a Mormon downs some brewskis on the Saturday before blessing the sacrament on Sunday. But that is where Jesus being the judge comes into play since none of us knows what light another person had to begin with.

 

[colton]

Is or was Elder Holland's reference to "eternal anguish" a synonym for hell when he was telling that Snow Canyon story? And if so, am I ****ed as an Atheist because I'm not repenting or abiding by the divine commandments? Is it safe to assume that even if I live a good life and do well, I'm still screwed in the eyes of the Mormon church?

Though I was born and raised LDS, I was always taught that those who don't "know/accept God" here on earth will have that opportunity in heaven. I can't answer from a doctrinal standpoint as I don't know the doctrine.

That's correct. But as Loggrad pointed out already, that doesn't mean you can procrastinate your repentance with no issues. As far as we know your personality doesn't change as you pass on to the hereafter. So if you're a jerk in this life, hateful to God and man, you'll be that same person later on.

Regarding Vinyl's comment of someone who "lives a good life and does well", most LDS believe such a person will accept the gospel in the hereafter.

Regarding your comment about the doctrine, the best source of this doctrine that I know about is in D&C 138, https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/138?lang=eng:

30 But behold, from among the righteous, he [Jesus] organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,

34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Elder Oaks' conference talk from Oct 2000 also talks about people being judged on what type of person they have become (he's not specifically talking about the deceased, but I think many of his points directly apply).
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2000/10/the-challenge-to-become?lang=eng

Many Bible and modern scriptures speak of a final judgment at which all persons will be rewarded according to their deeds or works or the desires of their hearts. But other scriptures enlarge upon this by referring to our being judged by the condition we have achieved.

The prophet Nephi describes the Final Judgment in terms of what we have become: “And if their works have been filthiness they must needs be filthy; and if they be filthy it must needs be that they cannot dwell in the kingdom of God” (1 Ne. 15:33; emphasis added). Moroni declares, “He that is filthy shall be filthy still; and he that is righteous shall be righteous still” (Morm. 9:14; emphasis added; see also Rev. 22:11–12; 2 Ne. 9:16; D&C 88:35). The same would be true of “selfish” or “disobedient” or any other personal attribute inconsistent with the requirements of God. Referring to the “state” of the wicked in the Final Judgment, Alma explains that if we are condemned by our words, our works, and our thoughts, “we shall not be found spotless; … and in this awful state we shall not dare to look up to our God” (Alma 12:14).

From such teachings we conclude that the Final Judgment is not just an evaluation of a sum total of good and evil acts—what we have done. It is an acknowledgment of the final effect of our acts and thoughts—what we have become. It is not enough for anyone just to go through the motions. The commandments, ordinances, and covenants of the gospel are not a list of deposits required to be made in some heavenly account. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a plan that shows us how to become what our Heavenly Father desires us to become.

 

[colton]

That ummm....that doesn't sound doctrinally correct to me. I'm not entirely familiar with Mormons, but I do believe that they require belief in Jesus for salvation. That's certainly what the Bible (which they believe) teaches.

Correct, salvation is through Jesus and belief in his name. Where the LDS church is somewhat unique among Christian churches, however, is our belief in the gospel being preached in the hereafter. See my previous post for some more information on that. I think that teaching is entirely in line with the Bible, though. For example, the LDS revelation known as D&C 138 cites these verses from 1 Peter in the Bible as inspiration for the revelation:

1 Peter 3:18–20

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1 Peter 4:6

For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

 

[b_line]

Is or was Elder Holland's reference to "eternal anguish" a synonym for hell when he was telling that Snow Canyon story? And if so, am I ****ed as an Atheist because I'm not repenting or abiding by the divine commandments? Is it safe to assume that even if I live a good life and do well, I'm still screwed in the eyes of the Mormon church?

no. I think that hell in Mormonism is a temporary place, that mostly everyone will experience a little bit of in order to change them for the better. Eternal hell is reserved for total dirtbags or people who are so evil that they can't be with the rest of the population at all forever. At least that's the way I understand it. Hell is kind of like training camp, I guess you could say, and really bad people get cut or something.

 

[framer]

no. I think that hell in Mormonism is a temporary place, that mostly everyone will experience a little bit of in order to change them for the better. Eternal hell is reserved for total dirtbags or people who are so evil that they can't be with the rest of the population at all forever. At least that's the way I understand it. Hell is kind of like training camp, I guess you could say, and really bad people get cut or something.

This, although, from my understanding , there is a lot of self selection. Some people are happy living in West Valley City, although most people would look at those arrangements as suboptimal. There would be too much pressure to change if you moved uptown. the LDS church believes in eternal progression wherein it is possible to continually expand your learning and knowledge. Some people simply will choose not to, just like they make that choice here on Earth. Those people are considered "damned" or dammed up because they will remain static for eternity. Many people feel, though it isn't necessarily doctrine, that given the chance, most good people will want to chance to learn and grow in the eternities and leap at the chance to do so, meaning that they will accept the gospel. If you are sour on the gospel while on Earth, and "kick against the pricks" it is going to make an about face harder in the hereafter. So the "I'll wait and see what happens after I die" approach won't probably work out for you.

 

[babe]

Is or was Elder Holland's reference to "eternal anguish" a synonym for hell when he was telling that Snow Canyon story? And if so, am I ****ed as an Atheist because I'm not repenting or abiding by the divine commandments? Is it safe to assume that even if I live a good life and do well, I'm still screwed in the eyes of the Mormon church?

Viny, we mere mortals, whether spokespersons for an organized religion or not, can have some good notions or ideals about "God" without raining on your parade when you formulate your notions or ideas about "Good". Pretty much, we're all on the same plane of existence and intelligence here.

However, I would not think it "safe" to assume anything about "God" or "Good". I find it helpful to review my assumptions and maybe approach the unknown with some caution. There is a considerable body of scripture in the LDS tradition, along with a hundred times as much commentary or preaching by church authorities. You have some like Colton who are well-versed in it all who have tried to explain it briefly. But the concept of "salvation" or being "saved" in Mormonism is fairly complex. Saved from what, exactly? Exactly what is meant by "salvation" as a state of existence? What can you do with "salvation" being bestowed upon you in a judgment on a date-certain? +
I consider it to mean essentially being able to "go home" where Jesus is. As opposed to being in a fallen state, separated from God, comparable to ordinary circumstances we experience here. It could be viewed as having a door opened, without meaning that every inadequacy in a person is replaced by an instantaneous achievement of sufficiency. Mormons also talk about degrees of "glory", or having "keys" that enable one to advance or do some things in addition to being in the presence of God.

At any rate, it all boils down to an idea of progress. . . . of personal progress. . . . and it does infer that the sooner you get going in the better direction, the better things will be.

I think it also infers that a person who seeks to do "Good" even if not specifically intending to follow a belief in "God", will advance by measure according to that good you choose to do. It's your process of choosing who you will be, or become. You can look at the issues at hand in your life, and make all kinds of good decisions even if you don't believe specifically in "God" as prescribed by some organized religion. And I believe God recognizes those good things and respects them.

 

[colton]

The talks from the past conference are now all online if anyone wants to read/listen to them: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/sessions/2015/04

 

[VINYLONE]

Regarding Vinyl's comment of someone who "lives a good life and does well", most LDS believe such a person will accept the gospel in the hereafter.

So, let me understand.

And, firstly, let me thank all of you that have taken the time to answer my questions. Well, those of you that have posted constructive stuff.

If I live a good and just life as an Atheist here on earth, and if most LDS believe that I will accept the gospel in the hereafter, what's the reason for religion? I mean, as an Atheist, I know when we die, we die. Once our life ends our life is extinguished. That being said, if at the time of death, I discover that there is an afterlife, why wouldn't I accept "the gospel?" So, again, why do I need religion or belief in a supreme being?

 

[babe]

Theoretically, you could have a better life here, as well as hereafter, by choosing to develop faith and a loving relationship with God and others.

I think it's a matter of finding a sense of meaning in the religious beliefs that's based on reckonizing the goodness in what God offers us, though it's our choice to accept the gifts.

On the other hand, when I look at some religions or organizations, I'm grateful there are non-believers with better morals and consciences, and better intelligence. Still, for me, God is as real as the back of my hand. I wouldn't say that based on any religious organization or established line of doctrine.

 

[bigb]

So, let me understand.

And, firstly, let me thank all of you that have taken the time to answer my questions. Well, those of you that have posted constructive stuff.

If I live a good and just life as an Atheist here on earth, and if most LDS believe that I will accept the gospel in the hereafter, what's the reason for religion? I mean, as an Atheist, I know when we die, we die. Once our life ends our life is extinguished. That being said, if at the time of death, I discover that there is an afterlife, why wouldn't I accept "the gospel?" So, again, why do I need religion or belief in a supreme being?

In the hereafter, we only add to what we've done in this life. For example, in the hereafter, a high school dropout only has that education to build upon. Same goes with our relationship, knowledge, and understanding of God. Why handicap ourselves in the hereafter with limited knowledge and understanding?

 

[colton]

That being said, if at the time of death, I discover that there is an afterlife, why wouldn't I accept "the gospel?"

According to LDS doctrine, when we die we live in a spirit world for a time before we are eventually resurrected. The judgment occurs at resurrection... all people are resurrected, but the "degree of glory" that we receive as our eternal dwelling place will vary. Thus there are two distinct parts to the afterlife: the immediate afterlife, and the kingdoms of glory.

The immediate afterlife is what I was speaking of above, in talking about how the gospel continues to be taught to people who didn't receive it on the earth. From what we know about it, it seems that life continues there in much the same way as we live here. Our knowledge/understanding will continue to be limited, and we will continue to need to exercise faith. So I imagine that some people will continue to disbelieve in God/Jesus there. I can totally see responses like this occurring as people there are being taught the gospel: "Yes, apparently I didn't cease to exist when I died, but that doesn't mean that accepting Jesus is the path to salvation. Why should I believe that?"

So from my perspective, an equally valid question might be, why *would* you accept the gospel there, if you wouldn't here?

But, as mentioned, most LDS assume that the truly good people of the world will all accept the gospel prior to their resurrection and judgment.

 

[VINYLONE]

According to LDS doctrine, when we die we live in a spirit world for a time before we are eventually resurrected. The judgment occurs at resurrection... all people are resurrected, but the "degree of glory" that we receive as our eternal dwelling place will vary. Thus there are two distinct parts to the afterlife: the immediate afterlife, and the kingdoms of glory.

The immediate afterlife is what I was speaking of above, in talking about how the gospel continues to be taught to people who didn't receive it on the earth. From what we know about it, it seems that life continues there in much the same way as we live here. Our knowledge/understanding will continue to be limited, and we will continue to need to exercise faith. So I imagine that some people will continue to disbelieve in God/Jesus there. I can totally see responses like this occurring as people there are being taught the gospel: "Yes, apparently I didn't cease to exist when I died, but that doesn't mean that accepting Jesus is the path to salvation. Why should I believe that?"

So from my perspective, an equally valid question might be, why *would* you accept the gospel there, if you wouldn't here?

But, as mentioned, most LDS assume that the truly good people of the world will all accept the gospel prior to their resurrection and judgment.

Sorry for the delayed response.

I guess, I'm thinking about this situation in a more pragmatic sense. Meaning, you have belief in your Mormon religion because of faith not because of anything that is verifiable. I don't believe in religion or the afterlife or a supreme being because none of it is verifiable. Now, unless, you're saying that my consciousness changes once I am in "the immediate afterlife" I would accept the gospel, because, well, it's in front of me. Everything I have ever known, the reality, my reality, will have been changed. If it's in front of me and I can see it, why would I not accept it?

Hopefully that makes sense.