Question about LDS Church after Smith's death.

[Dr. Jones]

I think a lot of what people say we "believe" is based more on word of mouth than actual doctrine. They hear we believe, so they think it's true rather than investigate it all and actually find out for themselves.

That's reasonable and goes without saying... But what about those that KNOW are being disenguous?

 

[Dr. Jones]

On the same subject, I find that people in the LDS church sometimes have very different ways of belief from their LDS neighbors. For example, my parents live almost a completely different religion, one that is much more superstitious, than I do, and they are members of the same church. I think a certain amount of your experiences with LDS members having contrary viewpoints to other mormon friends probably comes from members believing differently.

Also, there is a fair amount of change in the LDS church going on right now, and different "fundamental" and "progressive" factions forming. It is an interesting time to be a Mormon, especially a young one.

Hate to break it to you











































You ain't young.

 

[bigb]

That's reasonable and goes without saying... But what about those that KNOW are being disenguous?

I can't speak to their motives, but it certainly comes across as trying to hide something or being ashamed of something.

 

[b_line]

Hate to break it to you











































You ain't young.

Damn.

 

[RandyForRubio]

This might help in explaining the mormon position re works:

We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the gospel are:
1. Faith in the lord Jesus christ
2. Repentance.

If you have not faith, your repentance (works) is meaningless. It does not get you anywhere. To say that Mormons do not believe in grace is ignoring that the most basic tenet of Mormonism is faith in the lord and savior Jesus christ and his divine intervention and mission to redeem all of us from our fallen states. In my belief in the lds religion, faith has been the most important driving factor in following Christ. In my mind, this is no different than your belief in the grace of God.

I was watching this Focus on the Family video, the 'Truth Project' where the speaker quoted a few verses and one of them reminded me of this topic.

2 Timothy 2:25 "Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,"

In the hope that God grants us repentance. But how can that be?! If repentance is by our own doing, then how can God grant it to us? The answer is simple...nothing of our salvation is by our own doing. Our works gain us nothing, they are merely evidence.

 

[babe]

I was watching this Focus on the Family video, the 'Truth Project' where the speaker quoted a few verses and one of them reminded me of this topic.

2 Timothy 2:25 "Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,"

In the hope that God grants us repentance. But how can that be?! If repentance is by our own doing, then how can God grant it to us? The answer is simple...nothing of our salvation is by our own doing. Our works gain us nothing, they are merely evidence.

I continue to argue that a lot of doctrinal pairs/couplets in the Christian beliefs are inherently self-contradictory. Human choice, human agency, human accountability all require us to do something. Jesus gives many teachings whose ownly rational interpretation is that we should choose and are accountable for that choice. The beggar Lazarus and the Rich Man is about as close to a pure gift place in heave as the bible gives, but in that case the beggar was rewarded for his endurance. Unless we choose Jesus, we're lost.

 

[colton]

I was watching this Focus on the Family video, the 'Truth Project' where the speaker quoted a few verses and one of them reminded me of this topic.

2 Timothy 2:25 "Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,"

In the hope that God grants us repentance. But how can that be?! If repentance is by our own doing, then how can God grant it to us?

If repentance must be granted, how do you explain the dozens of verses where people are commanded to repent? I think you're way off base here. Repentance is clearly an individual choice.

The answer is simple...nothing of our salvation is by our own doing.

Nothing is our own doing? Isn't accepting Jesus a conscious choice, something of our own doing? Or are you a believer in predestination?

Our works gain us nothing, they are merely evidence.

Our deeds are not "merely" anything. They are what make up our lives, and as very clearly expressed in Matt 7 and Revelation 20 which I quoted earlier in the thread, if our deeds are evil we have in no way followed Jesus.

 

[RandyForRubio]

Of course I'm a believer in predestination Colton, how could you not be? It is in the Bible. And you're not disagreeing with me, you're disagreeing with Paul, and by association, the Holy Spirit, who is God. If you feel you know better than them, then by all means continue on with that.

 

[colton]

Of course I'm a believer in predestination Colton, how could you not be? It is in the Bible. And you're not disagreeing with me, you're disagreeing with Paul, and by association, the Holy Spirit, who is God. If you feel you know better than them, then by all means continue on with that.

(Depending on what precisely your view of predestination is...) I'm disagreeing with your interpretation of Paul. Not with Paul himself. And certainly not with the Holy Spirit, who has told me that any views on predestination which eliminate individual accountability are hogwash.

 

[RandyForRubio]

I've never said that individual accountability needs to be eliminated. I said our works cannot earn our salvation. I cannot figure out why you don't get it. Our works are evidence of our faith, but they do not gain/earn us faith or salvation.

As for predestination, it's clearly taught in the Bible that the believers are the elect, aka, the chosen. Now we can go to the Arminian point of view, or the Calvin point of view on those, but they aren't really salvation points so I don't see the point. What isn't up for discussion is that predestination, election, is taught in the Bible. Now as for our choices, yes, we have to make choices, as we have free will. But God grants us the ability to do so. So yes we have to repent, but we cannot do that without God allowing us to do so.

Now I'll say this again, because it seems to get forgotten continually...if you claim to have faith, but your works do not show that, then you do not have faith. You cannot have true faith without works. But we can have works without faith. There are many people who do good that are not saved. So what does this tell us? Works do not save, but faith does. Works are just evidence. We absolutely need works, but it's not so that we can earn anything by them.

 

[NAOS]

Humans are miserable. Their bones are filled with sin. We lack. We simply lack. We must atone for the debt registered by the very fact that we live. For generations humans sought, in vain, to redeem themselves in a myriad of ways, but finally -- mercifully! -- they discovered that there is just One redeemer. Toward Him all our desires must be channeled or we will die indebted and spend eternity in misery.

Despite the great wealth of Proof, there are still millions who do not believe. And of the so-called believers, there are many who do not judge themselves critically enough -- letting their desires slip by with the assumption that they are Godly enough.

It's sickening.

 

[colton]

I've never said that individual accountability needs to be eliminated.

That's good. I've previously talked to a Calvinist believer in predestination who didn't believe in free will or individual accountability. In my opinion that view is entirely unscriptural and incorrect.

I said our works cannot earn our salvation. I cannot figure out why you don't get it.

And I've agreed with that many times. Not sure why you think I don't get it.

Our works are evidence of our faith, but they do not gain/earn us faith or salvation.

I'm OK with that.

As for predestination, it's clearly taught in the Bible that the believers are the elect, aka, the chosen. Now we can go to the Arminian point of view, or the Calvin point of view on those, but they aren't really salvation points so I don't see the point. What isn't up for discussion is that predestination, election, is taught in the Bible. Now as for our choices, yes, we have to make choices, as we have free will.

I'm on board with election being taught in the Bible. I'm not going to call it predestination, though, due to my previous bad experience with the Calvinist.

But God grants us the ability to do so. So yes we have to repent, but we cannot do that without God allowing us to do so.

Still in agreement, I think, but I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "God allowing us to do so". If you mean "God has provided a Savior whose atonement pays the price of our sin when we repent, and without that Savior we would be unable to be cleansed from sin", then we're together.

Now I'll say this again, because it seems to get forgotten continually...if you claim to have faith, but your works do not show that, then you do not have faith. You cannot have true faith without works.

Agreed.

But we can have works without faith. There are many people who do good that are not saved.

I'm not going to judge whether or not people are saved, I will let Jesus do that. But Matthew 25 strongly suggests that people who do good will be accepted by the Lord, even if they weren't knowingly serving Him at the time. That matches C.S. Lewis's belief as expressed in The Last Battle (don't know if you are familiar with the Narnia books), where a follower of Tash was saved by Aslan at the end.

So what does this tell us? Works do not save, but faith does. Works are just evidence. We absolutely need works, but it's not so that we can earn anything by them.

As you said, faith without works is dead. So if you cannot have faith without works I'm not sure why you are so insistent on the bolded point. Seems to me like they BOTH are required for salvation. And of the two, Jesus himself seemed much more concerned about people's actions than about their beliefs. (By the way, this is entirely reconciled by the LDS doctrine that the gospel is taught in the hereafter... people who do good in this life will accept Jesus in the next, so they can be saved despite not necessarily having been Christian in this life.)