Archie Moses
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Your first paragraph is beyond stupid.
haha, jk - But seriously, I'm not. Please, do ask why. Your second paragraph you totally redeemed yourself and well put.
Planned Parenthood Selling Baby Organs
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Your first paragraph is beyond stupid.
haha, jk - But seriously, I'm not. Please, do ask why. Your second paragraph you totally redeemed yourself and well put.
Your first statement is very true. But the second? Ballooning abortion rates? Where do you get that idea? It's actually been going down, partly due to restricted access but also in large part due to lower rates of pregnancy at all ages.
https://www.guttmacher.org/media/nr/2014/02/03/
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/american-abortion-rate-decline/395960/
just listened to a very interesting podcast on this issue, I'll edit in the link if I can find it. I thought it was balanced in showing various viewpoints, and in trying to find a way to make discussion of the issue less divisive.
here's a LINK to the podcast episode - panelists include ethicists, professors (one from Fordham University, a Catholic institution) and others
https://www.kcrw.com/news-culture/shows/to-the-point/secret-recordings-ignite-new-abortion-debate
D
Deleted member 848
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Your first paragraph is beyond stupid.
Your second paragraph you totally redeemed yourself and well put.
Awesome.
D
Deleted member 848
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Sorry Moe! 'Ballooning' was a poor choice of word-- I should have said 'ballooned', as I was speaking relatively to other regions of the world where pro-choice legistlations are mandated, and access to abortions is funded.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(11)61786-8/fulltext
It's quite clear that regions within countries with no access to abortions have higher abortion rates (a category the US sometimes falls under).
America is the only region that matters.
D
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Sorry Moe! 'Ballooning' was a poor choice of word-- I should have said 'ballooned', as I was speaking relatively to other regions of the world where pro-choice legistlations are mandated, and access to abortions is funded.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(11)61786-8/fulltext
It's quite clear that regions within countries with no access to abortions have higher abortion rates (a category the US sometimes falls under).
I imagine you might mean this , say, as the simple consequence of following the logic of a set of realities, but I don't think it really works out like that. Imposing some standard education on people will produce rebels unless we medicate the water or lobotomize or something, making educational measures actually effective.
I think we have to just accept individual decisions, but maybe use some good standards in teaching personal decision-making, and live with the variance in outcomes as the price of individual freedom. That leads to me being in Dal's camp pretty much. I don't think we can really achieve a single version of the method though, and we have to accept the reality of divergent thinking among teaching folks, even parents. Maybe ideas like religious tolerance and freedom will prove to be better than a society driven by ideological or legal or educational imperatives?
It's pretty impossible to create a perfect world with imperfect thinking and free humans. Tolerance will be necessary. Maybe living with freedom means we can't just pass a law to fix everything. As rhetorical or bombastic as I may be, I think the decision is still a personal one, not a legal or political one. Doesn't stop me from trying to tell people we should not put life on a higher priority than convenience.
The world has always been limited by technology and human beliefs. I'm just not ready for government to step in and impose a "final solution" on us.
LogGrad98
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I always found it interesting how some people (not sure if many is correct) who are pro-abortion and full-on contraception availability are against teaching abstinence. They had this come up in Orgeon I think it was (may have been Washington, there in that corner anyway) while we were there, as part of the sex-ed or health curriculum in schools. A group was petitioning to have them add abstinence to the curriculum along with everything else and the venom spewed at them was crazy. Yes most of them had religious backing, but their approach was balanced and fair, they didn't want religion preached just a chapter or paragraph outlining the benefits of abstinence as a contraceptive. Yet as soon as the a-word was mentioned people just went off about not forcing religion down kids' throats and how ridiculous it was to teach abstinence when everyone knew what they needed was free condoms and abortions. It was never suggested to bring religion into it, it was always just assumed. I wondered why can't it be taught as a legitimate contraception too? And I don't know maybe now it is, but we don't have kids going through that until my 13 year old enters high school I guess, so we may be out of the loop. But I always found that crazy.
sarcasm, it was sarcasm.
RandyForRubio
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Cool, you won't find me disputing those things. You also side-stepped darn near everything I said and started a whole new topic, but whatever.
Anyways, not removing something because people are going to do it anyways is a terrible excuse. Better legalize rape, murder, and all drugs now.
And while socioeconomic issues absolutely play a large role, it does not excuse us from allowing moral wrongs.
RandyForRubio
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Perhaps when discussing abortion, our education system should point out that the suicide rate % between those who choose abortion and those who choose birth. Pretty decent sized difference there. I mean, if we cared about women's health we would teach those things, right?
LogGrad98
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How does that compare to, say, women who give birth and keep an unwanted child, or women who give the child up for adoption? Gotta compare all facets of the issue, not cherry-pick.
And also determine if people like dutch calling them slutty baby killing whores has any effect on their mental state.
Archie Moses
Well-Known Member
Scared to ask why? Or are you going to continue being a snooty, smarter than you a la Kicky type dude?
Archie Moses
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Ding, ding ding, Dalading.
D
Deleted member 848
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a cute case of confirmation bias.
I truly dgaf why you think so, in all honesty. If you want to post it, then post it.
Not exactly.
Lmao c'mob bruh. Quite literally all of the facts prove the contrary in the context of abortion. So while your idealism may make sense to you, in the context of abortion it is simply grounded in zero truth whatsoever. I linked a paper by The Lancet that goes in detail regarding this. Nations with banned abortions have higher rates. This is an empirical fact that cannot be escaped.
Umm, it definitely plays the biggest role-- which is why it's something that should be at the forefront of our focus.
Here are some facts regarding abortion, from a pro-life group, just so nobody questions the data as being biased in favor of a woman's right to choose to terminate a pregnancy
https://prolifeaction.org/faq/abortion.php#stages
Almost 83% of all abortions are for women over age 20
Over 60% of all abortions are performed within the first 9 weeks, and about 88% are performed within the first 12 weeks. Abortions after 20 weeks are only 1.5% of the total.
And while it doesn't say so in the link, almost all of the late term abortions are for matters of maternal health for issues that did not present themselves earlier in the pregnancy. These tend to be "wanted" pregnancies, which makes the situation all the more heartbreaking.
-------------------------
One question I have for those who feel abortion should be illegal (except in limited, specific circumstances) at all stages of pregnancy is that if a woman is 6-9 weeks pregnant, or even 12 - 14 weeks pregnant, who is going to know that other than the woman herself and her doctor? Unless she tells people, which if it is an unexpected and unwanted pregnancy, she is not likely to do - - how is anyone going to know? So if a doctor performs a "D & C" because a woman has irregular bleeding, who's going to know?
And as far as rape goes, how and by whom is it determined that a woman was raped? Does a police report have to be filed? Do you have any idea how many woman are in abusive relationships, and might be pregnant as a result of a sexual encounter that was not fully consensual. Some of these were issues I learned about during the time I volunteered at Planned Parenthood - - and they don't lend themselves to easy, cookie-cutter answers.
These questions also raise the issue of causing major privacy violations. I realize that for those of you who are unquestionably opposed to choice, these questions don't matter. But unless you want a system that places draconian obstacles upon women for no reason other than the fact that they are women, these are questions that should be considered.
https://prolifeaction.org/faq/abortion.php#stages
Almost 83% of all abortions are for women over age 20
Over 60% of all abortions are performed within the first 9 weeks, and about 88% are performed within the first 12 weeks. Abortions after 20 weeks are only 1.5% of the total.
And while it doesn't say so in the link, almost all of the late term abortions are for matters of maternal health for issues that did not present themselves earlier in the pregnancy. These tend to be "wanted" pregnancies, which makes the situation all the more heartbreaking.
-------------------------
One question I have for those who feel abortion should be illegal (except in limited, specific circumstances) at all stages of pregnancy is that if a woman is 6-9 weeks pregnant, or even 12 - 14 weeks pregnant, who is going to know that other than the woman herself and her doctor? Unless she tells people, which if it is an unexpected and unwanted pregnancy, she is not likely to do - - how is anyone going to know? So if a doctor performs a "D & C" because a woman has irregular bleeding, who's going to know?
And as far as rape goes, how and by whom is it determined that a woman was raped? Does a police report have to be filed? Do you have any idea how many woman are in abusive relationships, and might be pregnant as a result of a sexual encounter that was not fully consensual. Some of these were issues I learned about during the time I volunteered at Planned Parenthood - - and they don't lend themselves to easy, cookie-cutter answers.
These questions also raise the issue of causing major privacy violations. I realize that for those of you who are unquestionably opposed to choice, these questions don't matter. But unless you want a system that places draconian obstacles upon women for no reason other than the fact that they are women, these are questions that should be considered.
fishonjazz
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This is the main argument I always hear from the pro-gun dudes