The Honesty of Transgender Identity

[Ron Mexico]

This comes down to the wealth of language. Can sex sex and gender have different but related meanings? If we are to have understanding and knowledge don't we need a nuanced vocabulary in order to think?

If I were to ask you "What sex are you?" I suspect that you would say male. If I were to ask you what gender you are I suspect that you would reply that you are a man.

The difference may seem subtle but it is important. We use male often in a clinical sense. If I were to say that you are male I wouldn't be saying much about you beyond your biological sex but if we're to call you a man I would be. When I call you a man there is all this extra Paul Bunyan stuff going on. There is a reason that the saying is a "Man's man" and not a "Male's Male".

Oh, I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you were saying sexuality was binary. You meant sex as in male female.

I somewhat agree with that, although I think sex is not binary there are more than two sex's scientifically but I agree with your setiment.

 

[Siro]

Do you think there be situations between "I choose this" and "I am this, with no choice".

If you did not "buy any religion", what were your other choices besides atheism?

Religions make claims that are clearly false, so I don't believe them. Consequently, I am an atheist. I simply lack belief in any gods. It doesn't extend further than that.

Nothing is in reality a choice. It's all immutable laws of physics. Every input must have a specific output. There's nothing we can do about that, and nobody has ever made a "free choice".

But if transgender falls into the same category as religion, and not sex or sexual attraction, then it will have a harder time reaching mainstream acceptance than homosexuality. Much of the acceptance of homosexuality comes from the simple understanding that sexual attraction is automatic. They are how they are. That's a stronger position than telling people that everyone has the inherent right to whichever performance they choose.

 

[One Brow]

Yes but

1 extremely rare (m/f) covers almost everyone biologically and where it doesn't do it cleanly it can still be fairly neatly categorized. Categories are an important thinking tool we should not abandon them.
2 it is still not really subjective. There is a difference between accepting someone being born xy identifying as a woman and accepting that that person is genetically female. I think it is ok to say that our genetics are real but also that they don't confine us to a typically accepted social box.

1. Categories are useful and also limiting. I agree we need to use them, but we also need to recognize when they are limiting.
2. It seems to me that when you have an XY genotype, but you are born with the proto-typical female anatomy and physiology, we should not need to "accept" that they female. They are female. Why should genes be the primary determining factor?

 

[Archie Moses]

The scientist agreed, and made no attempt to correct. Dr. Soh seems to be making a name for herself as a maverick, not swayed by anything like the scientific understanding of various topic. II hear she does great fMRIs, though.

You listened to 5 minutes of it. Lol

 

[Scat]

I went to school with a transgender woman. She was a sweetest person. I visited her post-op. She was pretty cute as a guy, and became even cuter as a woman.

Would you have sexual relations with her knowing what you know?

 

[Siro]

Would you have sexual relations with her knowing what you know?

Ya, I don't mind.

 

[♪alt13]

I don't think it's healthy to obsess over identity. I'd rather live with someone making a mistake about my identity than have everyone worry about the countless ways they can offend someone by misjudging their identity.

People often assume I'm hispanic. They'll speak to me in Spanish when I go to Mexican restaurants. I couldn't care less. I have relatives who are bothered by it. As if there's something wrong with Mexicans, or special about their ethnicity.

You are confident, self reliant and know who you are. In my experience most people do not have that kind of self esteem for whatever reason. I do for the most part probably because I am a smert white dude living in murrica. I am not hurt easily. There was a time that I assumed other people felt the way I do. I guess it's only natural to do so. I think that I unwittingly hurt a lot of people by making that assumption. I don't want to hurt people unintentionally.

I prefer to only hurt people when I mean to. When I think they deserve it or need to be challenged strongly. I don't want to do it by accident or to people who are already very vulnerable .

 

[One Brow]

You listened to 5 minutes of it. Lol

If I listen to all three hours, will Dr. Soh become more accurate? I agree 5 minutes is not necessarily a fair representation. I asked you what parts of the video you thought were important. Did it include the first 5 minutes?

 

[One Brow]

Ya, I don't mind.

I'm not sure I could be so enlightened.

 

[Gameface]

Religions make claims that are clearly false, so I don't believe them. Consequently, I am an atheist. I simply lack belief in any gods. It doesn't extend further than that.

Nothing is in reality a choice. It's all immutable laws of physics. Every input must have a specific output. There's nothing we can do about that, and nobody has ever made a "free choice".

But if transgender falls into the same category as religion, and not sex or sexual attraction, then it will have a harder time reaching mainstream acceptance than homosexuality. Much of the acceptance of homosexuality comes from the simple understanding that sexual attraction is automatic. They are how they are. That's a stronger position than telling people that everyone has the inherent right to whichever performance they choose.

I understand what you're saying in regard to "born this way" being an easier (stronger) position to argue from, but I personally don't find that argument as compelling as people having the inherent right to choose who they are and how they live. But I see it all as a mix between people having undeniable, uncontrollable (in the sense that you don't just decide to be sexually attracted to X and not Y) feelings about sexual attraction and/or gender identity while at the same time making choices about what that means and how you engage those feelings.

In the end I don't care if people are born that way. They own their own existence and do with it as they please.

 

[JimLes]

I swear, a big chunk of transphobia is motivated solely by fear that you'll stick your dick inside someone you thought was born female but wasn't. It somehow so often boils down to that.

Also, I don't understand why so many people have this sports teams argument. Why is that such a huge deal?

 

[♪alt13]

1. Categories are useful and also limiting. I agree we need to use them, but we also need to recognize when they are limiting.
2. It seems to me that when you have an XY genotype, but you are born with the proto-typical female anatomy and physiology, we should not need to "accept" that they female. They are female. Why should genes be the primary determining factor?

Genes should be the primary determining factor for what genes you have and we should have words to express that. We should recognize that often that comes with expressing certain qualities more or less strongly but not always and not absolutely.
binary was probably the wrong word to use. I think it is a good example. I suspect that for the most part we agree. The problem is not with reality but with our development of a common vocabulary to express that reality.

Rather than abandon the endeavor because our current language is inadequate and thus render our thinking and communication inadequate I would choose to expand and refine our vocabulary/thinking.

So which words do we use to describe someone's genetics and which for their identity? Do we have enough? Can't we make more? Can we have familiar words and in-familiar words?

 

[Archie Moses]

Also, I don't understand why so many people have this sports teams argument. Why is that such a huge deal?

I see it in the news all the time.

 

[♪alt13]

Ya, I don't mind.

I think more people would than care to admit it.

If you like someone and are attracted to them what is the problem? More often than not the answer is probably the judgement from other people

 

[Gameface]

I swear, a big chunk of transphobia is motivated solely by fear that you'll stick your dick inside someone you thought was born female but wasn't. It somehow so often boils down to that.

Also, I don't understand why so many people have this sports teams argument. Why is that such a huge deal?

I think because they place a high value on the integrity of the competition aspect. That we have men's teams and women's teams to provide each a more level playing field.

I understand the concern.

But others have argued that for children's sports the purpose is not all about competing and winning or losing but being part of a team and a coordinated group effort. And if you look at the fact that sports is a big part of school, is that because we want to provide opportunities for kids to win or because we want children to learn about working with others and being good sports about it? I mean I don't really think we put kids in sports just to give them chances to win, as if that's an end unto itself.

 

[Siro]

I understand what you're saying in regard to "born this way" being an easier (stronger) position to argue from, but I personally don't find that argument as compelling as people having the inherent right to choose who they are and how they live. But I see it all as a mix between people having undeniable, uncontrollable (in the sense that you don't just decide to be sexually attracted to X and not Y) feelings about sexual attraction and/or gender identity while at the same time making choices about what that means and how you engage those feelings.

In the end I don't care if people are born that way. They own their own existence and do with it as they please.

But in general, you don't have to respect people's choices. By law, of course. As long as you're not directly hurting others, ya, do what you want. But if you're simply making a personal choice, then it is other people's personal choice whether to respect it.

I am not so sure it is a choice, btw. The whole concept of gender muddies the water. What is gender? Is it biological or is cultural? Is it both? to what extent is it either? The answers to these questions have a lot of implications, beyond whether it is a choice. If you completely remove gender from the equation, then transgender suddenly looks like the brain's rejection of one's sex. And that's not a choice.

 

[JimLes]

I see it in the news all the time.

Men posing as women to play professional sports? That horrible old Miguel Núñez movie aside, I don't think this happens very often in real life.

 

[fairweather]

Gender and sex are different only because people have decided it is so. I don't really see any difference between sexual preferences and other kinds of preferences, except that there are too many people in the world that think it's their business.

 

[JimLes]

I think because they place a high value on the integrity of the competition aspect. That we have men's teams and women's teams to provide each a more level playing field.

I understand the concern.

But is this a transgender bathroom situation where somehow the most outlandish possible scenario is presented as most likely to happen? I have a hard time imagining someone going through any kind of gender transition for the sole purpose of playing on a sports team. And even if they did, what is the likelihood that will provide them with an actual advantage that will upset the integrity of said sport?

 

[Darkwing Duck]

But in general, you don't have to respect people's choices. By law, of course. As long as you're not directly hurting others, ya, do what you want. But if you're simply making a personal choice, then it is other people's personal choice whether to respect it.

I am not so sure it is a choice, btw. The whole concept of gender muddies the water. What is gender? Is it biological or is cultural? Is it both? to what extent is it either? The answers to these questions have a lot of implications, beyond whether it is a choice. If you completely remove gender from the equation, then transgender suddenly looks like the brain's rejection of one's sex. And that's not a choice.

This is why I separate sexual attraction from transgenderism and am actually surprised at how intertwined they are. I'm posting this sentence at risk because I'm part of an online community that is extremely gung-ho about TG acceptance and nothing short of complete acquiescence to that philosophy brings about harsh judgement, and my handle here is the same elsewhere. However, given I have a freakin' anthropology degree, I would seem to have some sort of academic knowledge of what gender is and isn't, so my questions generally have legitimate weight behind them.

Also, is this thread really coincidence to what I posted in the pet peeve thread yesterday, I think it was?

Since I don't really want to go back and strictly define gender and spend hours on something I don't want to, especially over quibbles generally consisting of less than one percent of any population, I'll probably not continue in this thread. Specific questions to someone whose degree deals with pretty much solely human culture I'll probably answer, though.