What's new
By:
Filters

The Honesty of Transgender Identity

Status
Not open for further replies.
JimLes said:
I'm not denying anything. Having an advantage does not mean you should be disqualified from competing. You mention "bone density, muscle structure, frame, strength." What professional athlete does not have biological differences when it comes to these things? Serena Williams isn't Serena Williams because she worked harder than all the other women. She's Serena Williams because she was born stronger, bigger, wider, quicker than my sister.

And we have to consider the outcome. You come up with a handful of trans women competing(with one of your examples being 15 years old, which is downright ludicrous), but what was the outcome here? Who exactly is with unfair against? How many WNBA players are trans? How many NWSL players? How many of the top 100 players on the WTA tour? How many of the medal winners in track and field or swimming at the Olympics in Rio? You keep talking about a slippery slope, well, where is it? Where are these trans women who are dominating world class sports competitions?

And hell, even if you had a point, if a G-League player is willing to cut off his penis and undergo hormone therapy and put up with everything else that comes with transitioning, in order to possibly make 30-40 grand a year more, by all means, they should. If they're willing to do all that and can still dominate the WNBA, I tip my hat to them.
Click to expand...

I don't know about all of that. The difference in strength between men and women is huge. It's a pretty insurmountable advantage, and it'd be extremely unfair to the other competitors.
 
JimLes said:
If you're legally a woman, you should compete against women. Why is this so hard? It's always been like this, too.
Click to expand...
Because it's not fair and I'm a sports fan. Look at all the examples I gave you. The track stars shattered records. The mma fighter broke orbital bones. The weight lifter started transitioning at age 37. The long driver golfer was a cop for 20 years and great guy golfer, but nothing close to being pro - she then transitioned and viola - she became a golf pro and long drive winner. How many people can become world champs later on in life?

Bill Burr has a pretty funny bit on this you can see on YouTube.
 
Yeah, I've got to say, competitive sports is a complicated area. But I also think it is largely a red-herring in the larger transgender discussion.

As I posted before, for kids competing in middle and high school level sports, winning and losing are not the primary purpose of sports in schools. But it is still a discussion worth having.

I don't think anyone is trans so that they can have an advantage in sports. But if someone is trans they might see an opportunity. At the professional level I can see not allowing trans people to compete.

If that was the worst type of discrimination a trans person faced this would be a much better world than the one we currently live in.
 
Archie Moses said:
Because it's not fair and I'm a sports fan. Look at all the examples I gave you. The track stars shattered records. The mma fighter broke orbital bones. The weight lifter started transitioning at age 37. The long driver golfer was a cop for 20 years and great guy golfer, but nothing close to being pro - she then transitioned and viola - she became a golf pro and long drive winner. How many people can become world champs later on in life?

Bill Burr has a pretty funny bit on this you can see on YouTube.
Click to expand...

Ya, I think Jimles' point is crazy. Marginalize 50% of the population to appease.... what? 0.1%?
 
Archie Moses said:
Because it's not fair and I'm a sports fan. Look at all the examples I gave you. The track stars shattered records. The mma fighter broke orbital bones. The weight lifter started transitioning at age 37. The long driver golfer was a cop for 20 years and great guy golfer, but nothing close to being pro - she then transitioned and viola - she became a golf pro and long drive winner. How many people can become world champs later on in life?

Bill Burr has a pretty funny bit on this you can see on YouTube.
Click to expand...
Sure, on contact sports I see the issue. Idgaf about golf or weight lifting though.
 
Siro said:
I don't know about all of that. The difference in strength between men and women is huge. It's a pretty insurmountable advantage, and it'd be extremely unfair to the other competitors.
Click to expand...

But it just doesn't happen, though. There are no prominent cases. Why fight so hard to prevent a possibility that is so remote?

It's like the carbon blades that girlfriend-murdering Pistorius had on his legs. In theory, sophisticated blades made out of space age materials would be superior to human legs. If in no other area, but in the fact that you can't tear a blade like you can tear your Achilles. But they still let Pistorius compete against those with real legs because Pistorius wasn't going to be Usain Bolt even if he was born with legs, and because the dude who finished 10th in the Olympics is probably not going to cut off his legs in order to try and gain an advantage.
 
JimLes said:
But it just doesn't happen, though. There are no prominent cases. Why fight so hard to prevent a possibility that is so remote?

It's like the carbon blades that girlfriend-murdering Pistorius had on his legs. In theory, sophisticated blades made out of space age materials would be superior to human legs. If in no other area, but in the fact that you can't tear a blade like you can tear your Achilles. But they still let Pistorius compete against those with real legs because Pistorius wasn't going to be Usain Bolt even if he was born with legs, and because the dude who finished 10th in the Olympics is probably not going to cut off his legs in order to try and gain an advantage.
Click to expand...

Why such faith in people? Makes no sense. If simply identifying as a woman becomes the criterion for competing in woman's sports, then of course many will abuse it. There's nothing remote about that possibility. It's pretty much a certainty.

Of course, the conversation is moot. That would never happen on any serious competitive level, since it's absurd and irrational.
 
Archie Moses said:
Look at all the examples I gave you. The track stars shattered records. The mma fighter broke orbital bones. The weight lifter started transitioning at age 37. The long driver golfer was a cop for 20 years and great guy golfer, but nothing close to being pro - she then transitioned and viola - she became a golf pro and long drive winner.
Click to expand...

I looked at the examples. Were world records shattered? Were UFC belts won? Were there Olympic medals in weightlifting won? Are there any transgender women in the LPGA right now?

You've given examples to conclude that there may be a handful of transgender women competing at low levels out of millions of women participating in sports around the world.

And once again, even though you keep refusing to answer, I ask what hugely negative effect you think this will lead to. Do you think half of WNBA will be transgender by 2050?
 
Siro said:
Why such faith in people? Makes no sense. If simply identifying as a woman becomes the criterion for competing in woman's sports, then of course many will abuse it. There's nothing remote about that possibility. It's pretty much a certainty.
Click to expand...

But I'm not arguing people should be allowed to compete based on identification. I'm saying that if someone has medically transitioned, they should be allowed to compete. I'm not saying that simply saying you wanna compete against women and putting some eyeshadow on should make you eligible to compete as a woman. I'm not arguing for this.

JuwannaMan.jpg
https://i2.wp.com/humormillmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/JuwannaMan.jpg
 
JimLes said:
But I'm not arguing people should be allowed to compete based on identification. I'm saying that if someone has medically transitioned, they should be allowed to compete. I'm not saying that simply saying you wanna compete against women and putting some eyeshadow on should make you eligible to compete as a woman. I'm not arguing for this.

JuwannaMan.jpg
https://i2.wp.com/humormillmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/JuwannaMan.jpg
Click to expand...

I guess I'll have to think about that. But I understand what you're saying. It's rare and nobody is doing it to compete in sports.
 
Siro said:
I guess I'll have to think about that. But I understand what you're saying. It's rare and nobody is doing it to compete in sports.
Click to expand...

It's not that I have faith in people in general, so much as I have faith that most men will not chop off their dicks and balls and take hormones just to win a local weightlifting competition.

Obviously, if this were to somehow become an issue despite this, then yes, I'd be willing to make rules stricter.

Kinda like eligibility rules in soccer. You used to be able to play for any national team as long as you legally held their passport. Then Togo and Qatar decided to start offering passports to second-rate Brazilians and the rules were changed. Now you need a connection to the country at birth(parents, grandparents) or 5 years of residence.
 
While Caster Semanya isn't transgender in the case you're trying make, it's similar and had reactions that would mirror the same ones transgender women would have. She BLEW away the competition at the Olympics.
 
JimLes said:
It's not that I have faith in people in general, so much as I have faith that most men will not chop off their dicks and balls and take hormones just to win a local weightlifting competition.
Click to expand...

This is pretty much exactly what Laurel Hubbard did. She lived as a man for 35 years. Decided to transition and did. Then started competing in weight lifting competitions and winning.

It did not sit well with many and you're acting all shocked.

I gave you examples and you're still blind to them. Wtf.
 
I recently found out that I am cis-gendered. I had no clue - but once it was explained to me, I had to agree.
 
Archie Moses said:
This is pretty much exactly what Laurel Hubbard did. She lived as a man for 35 years. Decided to transition and did. Then started competing in weight lifting competitions and winning.

It did not sit well with many and you're acting all shocked.

I gave you examples and you're still blind to them. Wtf.
Click to expand...

From a CNN article on this: "Despite setting national junior records as a male weightlifter, Hubbard isn't breaking any rules.

The International Olympic Committee decrees that male-to-female transgender athletes must undergo hormone therapy and demonstrate testosterone levels of below 10 nanomols per liter for at least one year leading up to and during competition.

Such athletes must also declare their "gender identity" is female for a minimum of four years."

So you're trying to argue that this is all a devious ploy? That Laurel Hubbard dishonestly did all this just to win a few tournaments in a sport that's less lucrative than pole vault?
 
JimLes said:
From a CNN article on this: "Despite setting national junior records as a male weightlifter, Hubbard isn't breaking any rules.

The International Olympic Committee decrees that male-to-female transgender athletes must undergo hormone therapy and demonstrate testosterone levels of below 10 nanomols per liter for at least one year leading up to and during competition.

Such athletes must also declare their "gender identity" is female for a minimum of four years."

So you're trying to argue that this is all a devious ploy? That Laurel Hubbard dishonestly did all this just to win a few tournaments in a sport that's less lucrative than pole vault?
Click to expand...
I don't think it's a ploy at all.

I do, however, think it is unfair for her to compete against women. Having competed against men before makes it that much more obvious as to why. It. Is. Not. Fair.
 
Archie Moses said:
I don't think it's a ploy at all.

I do, however, think it is unfair for her to compete against women. Having competed against men before makes it that much more obvious as to why. It. Is. Not. Fair.
Click to expand...

Life. Is. Not. Fair. Caster Semenya, mentioned above, has hyperandrogenism. Some people are taller than others. Some people are double jointed. Some people can jump higher. You say this is different, but you don't explain how or why. Why is it fair that I have to compete with people who have innate biological advantages?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Share this page

Top