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The Honesty of Transgender Identity

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Darkwing Duck said:
This is why I separate sexual attraction from transgenderism and am actually surprised at how intertwined they are. I'm posting this sentence at risk because I'm part of an online community that is extremely gung-ho about TG acceptance and nothing short of complete acquiescence to that philosophy brings about harsh judgement, and my handle here is the same elsewhere. However, given I have a freakin' anthropology degree, I would seem to have some sort of academic knowledge of what gender is and isn't, so my questions generally have legitimate weight behind them.

Also, is this thread really coincidence to what I posted in the pet peeve thread yesterday, I think it was?

Since I don't really want to go back and strictly define gender and spend hours on something I don't want to, especially over quibbles generally consisting of less than one percent of any population, I'll probably not continue in this thread. Specific questions to someone whose degree deals with pretty much solely human culture I'll probably answer, though.
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Coincidence in a way, yes. But I did see your post and that probably at the very least subconsciously encouraged me to post this thread that I've been wanting to post for some time. This is an issue that has become part of my life and I want to understand it better and better understand what other people's perceptions of it are.
 
I don’t necessarily agree with it but I am 100% supportive of people who are. One of my close friends who is my girlfriends best friend is transgender. It literally makes no difference to refer to them as “he” or “him” and call them by the name they want to be called but it means a lot to them by doing it.
 
JimLes said:
Men posing as women to play professional sports? That horrible old Miguel Núñez movie aside, I don't think this happens very often in real life.
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I see it in high school sports all the time. I can provide links if you'd like. I've also seen it in golf and mma tournaments for adults. It's a slippery slope imo.
 
Grayson's Hands said:
I don’t necessarily agree with it but I am 100% supportive of people who are. One of my close friends who is my girlfriends best friend is transgender. It literally makes no difference to refer to them as “he” or “him” and call them by the name they want to be called but it means a lot to them by doing it.
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I agree 100%.

Ben Shapiro once was calling a trans member by him instead of her in an interview. As much as I like Ben, he was wrong on this. Just give someone the respect to call them by what they identify with. It goes along way.
 
 
JimLes said:
All the time? Kids undergoing sex change operations and hormone therapy in order to play on girls' teams? I'd love to see these links.
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Yes. I've seen it at least 4 times in the last 4 months. I'm sure there are other examples I haven't read about too.
I just posted the links.
 
Archie Moses said:
Here's 5 quick examples.
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Where does it say any of these people underwent sex surgery as a devious way to win at sports? From the brief look at their information, they all seem to have transitioned for reasons that have nothing to do with sports.

"Fox was born in Toledo, Ohio. She recalls struggling with her gender as early as five or six years old. As a teenager, Fox believed she may have been a gay male, but learned about the term transgender at the age of 17. Fox continued living as a heterosexual male and married her then-girlfriend at the age of 19, when the latter became pregnant with their daughter. Fox then joined the US Navy to support her new family, serving as an operations specialist on the USS Enterprise.

After leaving the Navy, Fox enrolled at the University of Toledo, but dropped out citing ongoing psychological stress from her unresolved gender issues. After leaving college, Fox worked as a truck driver to earn money for sex reassignment surgery. She later moved to Chicago, Illinois with her daughter. In 2006, she traveled to Bangkok, Thailand to undergo gender reassignment surgery, breast augmentation, and hair transplant surgeries at the Bangkok National Hospital."
 
JimLes said:
Where does it say any of these people underwent sex surgery as a devious way to win at sports? From the brief look at their information, they all seem to have transitioned for reasons that have nothing to do with sports.
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Where did I write they had to have a sex change to be trans?

This is why I'm against them competing. Biologically speaking, many have an unfair advantage. It's science.
 
Siro said:
Probably not. But I'll try anything once. ;)
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Being bi and willing to try anything once makes this, obviously, understandable. I think this is great you're upfront about this and put it out there. I think many wouldn't in fear of being made fun or ashamed, unfortunately.

I wonder how many guys who consider themselves heterosexual would date a trans woman? Would they still be considered heterosexual? Why or why not?
 
Archie Moses said:
I agree 100%.

Ben Shapiro once was calling a trans member by him instead of her in an interview. As much as I like Ben, he was wrong on this. Just give someone the respect to call them by what they identify with. It goes along way.
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There was a dumb facebook meme (facebook memes are a dumb way to form opinions...) that I thought was interesting. It said we call Calvin Cordozar Broadus, Jr by the name he wants to be called, which atm is Snoop Dogg, and for a while it was Snoop Lion. We tried as hard as we could to call Prince "The artist formerly known as Prince" and his birth name wasn't even Prince. We call people what they want to be called in general. It is something we've done forever. Oh, you want to be called "Tony" not "Anthony" sure, no problem. You're parents named you Devin Jr. but you want to go by your middle name, Demetrius, got it. I mean it is an accommodation that we give automatically in damn near any situation. So far no one in this thread has said they refuse to refer to transgender people according to the pronouns they prefer, but those people are certainly out there, and those people are jackasses.
 
Archie Moses said:
Where did I write they had to have a sex change to be trans?
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Which one of these examples involves someone competing simply because they said "I'm a woman?" With no sex change or hormone therapy or any transitioning actually happening? Again, this isn't ****ing Juwanna Mann here.

This is why I'm against them competing. Biologically speaking, many have an unfair advantage. It's science.
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Biologically speaking, professional athletes all have an unfair advantage. That's science, too. I don't have 50 inch vertical.
 
I don't understand the slippery slope argument. You should compete in whatever gender category your legal gender matches. If your driver's license says you're a woman, you compete with women. Where exactly is the slope here? Who exactly is "gaming" the system here?
 
JimLes said:
Which one of these examples involves someone competing simply because they said "I'm a woman?" With no sex change or hormone therapy or any transitioning actually happening? Again, this isn't ****ing Juwanna Mann here.



Biologically speaking, professional athletes all have an unfair advantage. That's science, too. I don't have 50 inch vertical.
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Even if they're on hormone therapy, there are huge biological differences between males and females outside of just hormones like bone density, muscle structure, frame, strength, etc. Saying that you don't have a 50" vertical isn't really the same argument.

You're right, it isn't Juwanna Mann. I don't think any one of them are saying they're women simply to compete against females. It still doesn't change the fact that they were born males. Denying they have an unfair advantage against those born female is simply denying science imo.
 
JimLes said:
I don't understand the slippery slope argument. You should compete in whatever gender category your legal gender matches. If your driver's license says you're a woman, you compete with women. Where exactly is the slope here? Who exactly is "gaming" the system here?
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The slippery slope is the science behind all of the examples I've given you that you turn a blind eye to.
Sports should be competed between sex and not gender imo - the exceptions would be the low percentage of inner sex.
 
Archie Moses said:
You're right, it isn't Juwanna Mann. I don't think any one of them are saying they're women simply to compete against females. It still doesn't change the fact that they were born males. Denying they have an unfair advantage against those born female is simply denying science imo.
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I'm not denying anything. Having an advantage does not mean you should be disqualified from competing. You mention "bone density, muscle structure, frame, strength." What professional athlete does not have biological differences when it comes to these things? Serena Williams isn't Serena Williams because she worked harder than all the other women. She's Serena Williams because she was born stronger, bigger, wider, quicker than my sister.

And we have to consider the outcome. You come up with a handful of trans women competing(with one of your examples being 15 years old, which is downright ludicrous), but what was the outcome here? Who exactly is with unfair against? How many WNBA players are trans? How many NWSL players? How many of the top 100 players on the WTA tour? How many of the medal winners in track and field or swimming at the Olympics in Rio? You keep talking about a slippery slope, well, where is it? Where are these trans women who are dominating world class sports competitions?

And hell, even if you had a point, if a G-League player is willing to cut off his penis and undergo hormone therapy and put up with everything else that comes with transitioning, in order to possibly make 30-40 grand a year more, by all means, they should. If they're willing to do all that and can still dominate the WNBA, I tip my hat to them.
 
Archie Moses said:
The slippery slope is the science behind all of the examples I've given you that you turn a blind eye to.
Sports should be competed between sex and not gender imo - the exceptions would be the low percentage of inner sex.
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If you're legally a woman, you should compete against women. Why is this so hard? It's always been like this, too.

And I don't think you understand what a slippery slope means. It's an outcome. What outcome do you believe allowing transgender women to compete against other women will cause?
 
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