Education

[moevillini]

@dalamon @One Brow @jimmy eat jazz @Red @Zombie

If you could focus on and get one agenda item passed would it be free healthcare or free college education? Why?

so my opinion isn't important to you? gee thanks...

Healthcare affects a person throughout their life, and bankrupts many people. Most of the time, college pays for itself over the first 15 years or so. Between those, I would choose healthcare first.

agree ^

furthermore, generally speaking, a person has far more control over their college costs than their healthcare costs - and college costs will generally more limited, whereas healthcare cost could be astronomical

(or at least college costs would be more predictable, healthcare costs far less so)

 

[silesian]

I was talking more about the internal combustion engine.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

The marketplace has done a fantastic job of providing Americans with quality health care

You believe that we have a market based health care system? Among other things, patients have no idea what they are paying for their services before they receive them. American health care is definitely not market based.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

Yeah this is along the lines of what I think as well. "Free" healthcare would be of immediate benefit to every person in the country.

What do you think would happen to medical innovation if healthcare became "free"? What do you think would happen to quality? What do you think would happen to average wait times?

 

[LogGrad98]

What do you think would happen to medical innovation if healthcare became "free"? What do you think would happen to quality? What do you think would happen to average wait times?

Let’s see. Here’s an anecdotal response. In Germany we were often able to get into our PCP within a few days. Specialists were usually a couple of weeks.

In the US the doctors had diagnosed my wife’s hip pain as weight related. This came from multiple doctors across the years. And when she shed her baby related weight it was brushed off as related to birthing 4 children. When we asked for further tests we were refused because insurance wouldn’t pay since it was determined it wasn’t medically necessary.

In Germany she mentioned she wasn’t sleeping well due to her hip pain kind of in passing to our PCP, who immediately scheduled an appointment with an orthopedic doctor who performed an MRI and CT scan and determined she had hip dysplasia, probably since birth. She got into physical therapy and the pain improved immensely. The cost. About €200 out of pocket. The cost in the US just for the doctor appointments over the years was probably somewhere around $1000, just for them to tell her to lose weight.

Then take the example of my son, who has epilepsy. In the US for testing such as EEGs, CAT scans, and other tests we had spent well in excess of $5000 in meeting the deductibles and paying out of pocket. The medication cost in the US for him was in the neighborhood of $350 a month maybe as low as 150 a month depending on the insurance I had at the time. And even then the medication wasn’t all that effective.

So then we move to Germany, and my son has a major epileptic episode. Actually it was the first grand mal seizure we had seen in our family with him as his seizures were normally have the absence variety. Needless to say we were a little freaked out and we did call 911 because We thought he hit his head because he Was so disoriented. They came and picked him up in the ambulance and took him to a hospital that specialized in neurological disorders. He spent three days there (cost of the hospital stay and ambulance? 50 euro). They got him into see a neurologist and a psychiatrist who consulted together on the issues he deals with and prescribe medication. Some of the medication had not yet been approved by the FDA but it was approved in Germany. And some of the medication was medication we were used to paying $300 a month. In the end he had better control over his seizures in Germany then he ever did in the US. The total cost of the Testing and doctor appointments in Germany came to right around €400, and they had done more extensive testing that we have done in the US for over $5000. The total cost of the medication per month was in the neighborhood of €80. Versus $350 for less effective medication in the US.

I think all of the fears of our healthcare system Descending into Third World status if it becomes “free” Are so overblown it isn’t even funny. And all of those old tired excuses of never being able to get into the doctor the quality of healthcare becoming greatly diminished and lack of Innovation Is just a big load of *********.

 

[Stoked]

so my opinion isn't important to you? gee thanks...



agree ^

furthermore, generally speaking, a person has far more control over their college costs than their healthcare costs - and college costs will generally more limited, whereas healthcare cost could be astronomical

(or at least college costs would be more predictable, healthcare costs far less so)

Haha. @moevillini what do you think?

 

[Stoked]

You believe that we have a market based health care system? Among other things, patients have no idea what they are paying for their services before they receive them. American health care is definitely not market based.

Hahaha. Yes it is. Just because the client/buyer is geberally an idiot doesn’t change that open market is the base premise for healthcare.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

Let’s see. Here’s an anecdotal response. In Germany we were often able to get into our PCP within a few days. Specialists were usually a couple of weeks.

In the US the doctors had diagnosed my wife’s hip pain as weight related. This came from multiple doctors across the years. And when she shed her baby related weight it was brushed off as related to birthing 4 children. When we asked for further tests we were refused because insurance wouldn’t pay since it was determined it wasn’t medically necessary.

In Germany she mentioned she wasn’t sleeping well due to her hip pain kind of in passing to our PCP, who immediately scheduled an appointment with an orthopedic doctor who performed an MRI and CT scan and determined she had hip dysplasia, probably since birth. She got into physical therapy and the pain improved immensely. The cost. About €200 out of pocket. The cost in the US just for the doctor appointments over the years was probably somewhere around $1000, just for them to tell her to lose weight.

Then take the example of my son, who has epilepsy. In the US for testing such as EEGs, CAT scans, and other tests we had spent well in excess of $5000 in meeting the deductibles and paying out of pocket. The medication cost in the US for him was in the neighborhood of $350 a month maybe as low as 150 a month depending on the insurance I had at the time. And even then the medication wasn’t all that effective.

So then we move to Germany, and my son has a major epileptic episode. Actually it was the first grand mal seizure we had seen in our family with him as his seizures were normally have the absence variety. Needless to say we were a little freaked out and we didn’t call 911 because it also volunteer where he hit his head because he Was so disoriented. They came and picked him up in the ambulance and took him to a hospital that specialized in neurological disorders. He spent three days there. They got him into see a neurologist and a psychiatrist who consulted together on the issues he deals with and prescribe medication. Some of the medication had not yet been approved by the FDA but it was approved in Germany. And some of the medication was medication we were used to paying $300 a month. In the end he had better control over his Sears in Germany then he ever did in the US. The total cost of the Testing and doctor appointments in Germany came to ride around €400, and they had done more extensive testing that we have done in the US for over $5000. The total cost of the medication per month was in the neighborhood of €80. Versus $350 for less effective medication in the US.

I think all of the fears of our healthcare system Descending into Third World status if it becomes “free” Are so overblown it isn’t even funny. And all of those old tired excuses of never being able to get into the doctor the quality of healthcare becoming greatly diminished and lack of Innovation Is just a big load of *********.

Interesting story, and thanks for sharing. Some of it seems to have been garbled by voice to text or something, but I think I get the gist. One of the main things that has made me believe that free healthcare is not a great solution is my cousin's experiences in Canada. They are all Canadian citizens and have access to the healthcare there, but whenever they have the option they come to America for care instead. I have one cousin with a rare genetic disorder who was never properly diagnosed in Canada, but the Mayo Clinic figured out what was going on and changed his life. My uncle and aunt are getting older and have both come to America for major procedures. They say that they do this because the quality of care is so much higher and the wait time is so much shorter.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

Hahaha. Yes it is. Just because the client/buyer is geberally an idiot doesn’t change that open market is the base premise for healthcare.

In our system the buyer doesn't even have access to the prices, and they generally don't care what they are anyway because the insurance company takes the responsibility. They are not being idiots. They are simply reacting to the way the system is set up.And btw, if you choose not to have insurance and shop around for your own medical care you are in an even worse position because you do not get the same prices that the insurance companies do... not even close. You would end up paying far more for the procedures than the insurance company would at the most expensive provider, even if you went with the least expensive provider.

 

[One Brow]

I was talking more about the internal combustion engine.

Which was first attached to a carriage by a man who had patented a version of the engine a year earlier. I think that qualifies as experience in the field of internal combustion engines in that day.

 

[One Brow]

What do you think would happen to medical innovation if healthcare became "free"?

Are we changing how much the government spends on driving it?

What do you think would happen to quality?

Little, if we spend at the current rate. Perhaps a slight improvement.

What do you think would happen to average wait times?

Little, if we spend at the current rate. Perhaps a decrease at first as people flood the system for care they can't currently afford, but that would diminish over a few months.

 

[fishonjazz]

In our system the buyer doesn't even have access to the prices, and they generally don't care what they are anyway because the insurance company takes the responsibility.

My insurance company doesn't take the responsibility for **** until I reach a high *** deductable first despite the fact that I'm paying a pretty high (to me anyway) premium every week.

Though you are right that I don't "shop around" as it's hard to get a true answer about cost when you do call a doctor office and my insurance only covers certain ones anyway.

I sometimes have things going on with my body that I should definitely have checked out but I don't cause it's too expensive. I mean I might have cancer but whatever, just gonna hope for the best instead of finding out.


Our health care system sucks.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[One Brow]

Interesting story, and thanks for sharing. Some of it seems to have been garbled by voice to text or something, but I think I get the gist. One of the main things that has made me believe that free healthcare is not a great solution is my cousin's experiences in Canada. They are all Canadian citizens and have access to the healthcare there, but whenever they have the option they come to America for care instead. I have one cousin with a rare genetic disorder who was never properly diagnosed in Canada, but the Mayo Clinic figured out what was going on and changed his life. My uncle and aunt are getting older and have both come to America for major procedures. They say that they do this because the quality of care is so much higher and the wait time is so much shorter.

It goes both ways. Lots of Americans also go to Canada for care they can't get here in the US.

 

[Zombie]

In the US the doctors had diagnosed my wife’s hip pain as weight related. This came from multiple doctors across the years. And when she shed her baby related weight it was brushed off as related to birthing 4 children. When we asked for further tests we were refused because insurance wouldn’t pay since it was determined it wasn’t medically necessary

This type of **** is infuriating to me. Women's pain is so often brushed off by doctors in this country.

 

[silesian]

Gottlieb Daimler was not a part of the horse drawn carriage industry in any way, shape, or form.

Come on..... just stop.​

 

[One Brow]

You would end up paying far more for the procedures than the insurance company would at the most expensive provider, even if you went with the least expensive provider.

That insurance companies using the power of the market. Capitalism at its finest. Don't you believe in capitalism?

 

[One Brow]

Gottlieb Daimler was not a part of the horse drawn carriage industry in any way, shape, or form.

Come on..... just stop.​

So, you were talking about carriages after all. Make up your mind.

I'm sure Daimler never talked to anyone who had made carriages nor studied them at all before he put an internal combustion engine on one. That's the logical thing for an inventor to do, right? Reinvent the carriage from the ground up.[/sarcasm]

The notion of the outsides who revolutionizes a system, and improves it, with no experience in the system nor advice from experts, is a myth. It's not reality. That's not how human progress works. It's Besty DeVos running the Department of Education. We make progress by standing on the shoulders of those who came before us to reach new heights.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

My insurance company doesn't take the responsibility for **** until I reach a high *** deductable first despite the fact that I'm paying a pretty high (to me anyway) premium every week.

Though you are right that I don't "shop around" as it's hard to get a true answer about cost when you do call a doctor office and my insurance only covers certain ones anyway.

I sometimes have things going on with my body that I should definitely have checked out but I don't cause it's too expensive. I mean I might have cancer but whatever, just gonna hope for the best instead of finding out.


Our health care system sucks.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using JazzFanz mobile app

I agree with all of this.

 

[fishonjazz]

I don't think healthcare should be free btw. But maybe the 500 dollars per month I pay for premiums should cover my healthcare.
Instead the 500 dollars per month basically does nothing. When I go to the doctor I pay 100% of the cost up until a deductible amount that I will rarely ever meet.
So that 500 per month gets me absolutely nothing.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[One Brow]

I don't think healthcare should be free btw. But maybe the 500 dollars per month I pay for premiums should cover my healthcare.
Instead the 500 dollars per month basically does nothing. When I go to the doctor I pay 100% of the cost up until a deductible amount that I will rarely ever meet.
So that 500 per month gets me absolutely nothing.

It's never free. Mine is paid for my my premiums and my employers matching of those premiums. Under a universal system, those premiums would become taxes instead.