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François Isaac de Rivaz, the first one to put an internal combustion engine into a frame as an automobile was a surveyor and notary.

Thank you for helping to make my point. That was a year after he had patented an internal combustion engine. He knew the field well enough to be an inventor in it.
 
Provide no guidance to a 16-year-old who is making decisions that will affect them when they are 40?

Several thoughts.

It’s not like they can’t change their minds later. People do it all the time now.

I didn’t say provide no guidance. I said put it all in front of them and see what you get. What catches their eye, what questions do they come up with? Actually let them take a driving role in shaping their future. What decisions do they make?

Also high schoolers don’t have to make that decision at 16. They can do so at 18 or even later if they wish.
 
Provide no guidance to a 16-year-old who is making decisions that will affect them when they are 40?
You do realize many developed nations do exactly this right now and very successful right? Of course there is some level of direction and guidance but the choice is still made pretty early. Of course it does not entirely preclude college but it sets them early on a vocational tract.
 
Thank you for helping to make my point. That was a year after he had patented an internal combustion engine. He knew the field well enough to be an inventor in it.
The question is how did he get the knowledge? Was it broad institutional learning or specified focus in a given area? Just shows there are multiple ways to get specialized knowledge of a given subject.
 
The money that is allocated for education is given to parents in the form of vouchers. The parents decide which schools and programs they are willing to spend their vouchers on. The idea is to create competition in the marketplace in order to promote quality education.

The marketplace has done a fantastic job of providing Americans with quality health care
 
It’s not like they can’t change their minds later. People do it all the time now.

I teach a lot of adults who didn't go past algebra in high school. It's much harder for them to pick this up at 30 than at 16.

Also high schoolers don’t have to make that decision at 16. They can do so at 18 or even later if they wish.

That's been my point.
 
You do realize many developed nations do exactly this right now and very successful right? Of course there is some level of direction and guidance but the choice is still made pretty early. Of course it does not entirely preclude college but it sets them early on a vocational tract.

In America we value the pretense that anyone can go on to do anything.
 
The question is how did he get the knowledge? Was it broad institutional learning or specified focus in a given area? Just shows there are multiple ways to get specialized knowledge of a given subject.

I expect some of both. As you pointed out, he was a surveyor and a notary in addition to an inventor.
 
I want people who aren't in education to quit telling us how we need to fix education.

Well, I agree with this with a simple stipulation..... that we agree that public education is not actually "education". Well, at least not since John Dewey and the socialists wrecked the concept. "Trained to the Task" is not real education.

I like the idea of vocational/technical education a lot..... skills training not indoctrination/socialism. But for higher education we need to get the Marxism outta the schools. Call it "Separation of Propagandists Indoctrination from State Management", the modern "Separation of Church and State".

We can sell off all the public schools, largely. All a kid needs today is a computer and a little cubby hole.... a desk in his/her bedroom. The public school teachers can learn to deal cards for the casinos.... it's less harmful to society than being "Bricks in the Wall" of global fascism.

I would concede that we need sports programs. My kids go to the high school to do the sports. So we can build rec centers on a convenient frequency for still having "local sports" kids can do.

I'm damned impressed when I finally get home. My computer/study has been taken over by my dau, who just got picked up for the hs varsity track team and does pretty good with a basketball too. So I come in, and have to go over her schoolwork sitting in neat piles on my desk. She's way ahead of me for her age.
 
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Karl Benz designed and built industrial scales and Bridges before he started working in engines.

The critical issue here is liberty. In a society that goes to an extreme.... like ours does currently imo…. in reliance on professionalism/experts in ever narrower specialties.... people lose the ability to be truly innovative as a cultural value. It goes more and more to knowing how to do the traditional thing.

Just having the liberty to break outta the mold and do it all different is essential.
 
Healthcare affects a person throughout their life, and bankrupts many people. Most of the time, college pays for itself over the first 15 years or so. Between those, I would choose healthcare first.

This is not current fact. We are importing well-schooled, and more efficiently-schooled, professionals from India and other places, who drive wages for graduates here down. Our students, after being "given" loans, cannot get jobs with their training that can efficiently pay off those debts.

This is criminal, really. Our government is financing oversupply in every educational line, while bending over for Big Business to supply even cheaper foreign immigrants. Our people are betrayed by all this.

The loan programs bankroll expansion of the university system and promote inefficiencies in practices, and reduce the quality of the product. We have such corrupt politics the common folk are being run into ruin.
 
The marketplace has done a fantastic job of providing Americans with quality health care

I know you're being smart. Not that you aren't smart. Nobody says that.

But the fact is, American healthcare is and has long been the greatest engine of technical progress on planet earth. Because of capitalist incentive which persisted despite ever-increasing incursions of government regs. and mandated management overlording.

Without the political contest for converting this once-free market into a great Cartel run by the biggest lobbyist crew, just imagine how much better off we would be.
 
Healthcare affects a person throughout their life, and bankrupts many people. Most of the time, college pays for itself over the first 15 years or so. Between those, I would choose healthcare first.
Yeah this is along the lines of what I think as well. "Free" healthcare would be of immediate benefit to every person in the country.
 
This is not current fact. We are importing well-schooled, and more efficiently-schooled, professionals from India and other places, who drive wages for graduates here down. Our students, after being "given" loans, cannot get jobs with their training that can efficiently pay off those debts.

College debt was a problem 35 years ago when I got out of college. The best solution is to borrow minimally in the first place, but the more expensive colleges have a social cachet that many students and parents can not resist.

Sponsoring H-1B visas is a time-intensive, resource-intensive, gamble. Just last year, two different people from my office were required to return home due to visa issues for 6 months or more, and many businesses simply require either citizenship or permanent residency as a condition of hire.

This is criminal, really. Our government is financing oversupply in every educational line, while bending over for Big Business to supply even cheaper foreign immigrants. Our people are betrayed by all this.

When we run out of jobs for people, maybe. Even during the Great Recession, there were jobs to go around in the tech industry.

The loan programs bankroll expansion of the university system and promote inefficiencies in practices, and reduce the quality of the product. We have such corrupt politics the common folk are being run into ruin.

The college I teach for just announced its in-district tuition rate of $113/credit hour next year (there another $8/hour in various fees), so you can do your first 60 or hours (two years) for under $7K. College is highly affordable if you are concerned about debt.
 
But the fact is, American healthcare is and has long been the greatest engine of technical progress on planet earth. Because of capitalist incentive which persisted despite ever-increasing incursions of government regs. and mandated management overlording.

Sorry, but the large part of the reason for the technological process is the massive government investment in scientific and medical research. If you want to see what medical progress looks like without massive government investment, go to any part of the world where they do have have a doctor trained in a government-supported medical school.
 
@dalamon @One Brow @jimmy eat jazz @Red @Zombie

If you could focus on and get one agenda item passed would it be free healthcare or free college education? Why?

Healthcare. Most people marry and have families. You, or any of your family could eventually face insurmountable medical bills. Both my wife and I are enrolled in a Medicare advantage plan that includes prescription drug coverage. I retained an employer based health plan for both of us, which is our secondary health insurance. If you're like me, and take a ridiculous number of prescriptions daily, if all I had was the Medicare plan, I'd be in a bind, since I'm on a fixed income.

My scripts alone, monthly, outstrip the high premium I pay to retain my secondary insurance, so it was smart to retain a secondary insurance, which reduces most script co-pays to $0. If we went to a Medicare for all system that eliminated, as Bernie's plan does, all private health insurance plans, I'd be in a bind again. And that's only because of the cost of prescription drugs, not counting any major medical issues.

And there is now a nationwide scarcity of many generic medicines. My doctor tells me 2019 will be the worst year yet for such shortages. If forced to chose a brand name instead, the cost can potentially be prohibitive.

Having two insurance plans does have the advantage of reducing doctor visits, procedures, and hospitalization to $0 co-pays, so we are lucky in that respect.
 
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You think that happened with extensive understanding of 1) the stresses that a carriage undergoes in travel, and 2) the already existing engine technology?

Do you think the people making horse buggies had that knowledge?
 
Do you think the people making horse buggies had that knowledge?

If by "that knowledge", you mean the stresses that a carriage undergoes in travel, then yes. Horse buggies had been built, driven, and repaired for a couple of thousand years by that point. The initial car carriages were not much different, and the early cars were slower than horses.
 
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