Privileged by Kyle Korver

[Jazzta]

Wow!

Good job Korver!

Know that I support you!

Sounds like you've come around to liking Korver again

Now to watch him throw those daggers in the playoffs.

 

[Tak]

Well, since he's not claiming to be American or not American, to be white or not white, it's hard to say he's lying about a fact he's not stating.

If he has a perspective to share, I'll listen. Right now, Tak is only saying that no one should tell him he needs to listen. So, there's not much experience there to hear, either.

Edit to add: by the way, this is the poster who has said tone doesn't matter in a conversation. So, I'm sure they have no objections to my tone.

You just don't listen, do you? How can you say I'm not claiming to be American or not American, to be white or not white if I just said this:

In other hand, how in the hell I would know what it means to be white in America, least of all tell people about it, if I'm not white nor American? You assume a lot.

How much clearly do I have to state that I'm not white nor American? Does your "privilege" demands for me to produce some kind of document to prove that? Why should I have to go to a message board trying to prove my ethnicity or my nationality? Why should I have to prove my ethnicity or nationality to have an opinion about something? You sure are making this board feel very welcoming to POC and foreigners with your attitude.

I never said that no one should tell me to listen, I clearly stated that my stance is "no one should tell anyone to shut up" I'm not against listening, I'm against silencing. You are deliberately twisting my words to fit what you already made up in your mind. You just read something and you racey sense started tingling so you decided to show that "whiny white American" who's who in this board, the problem is the whiny is not white, nor American. Now, instead of graciously backpedaling on your stance, you accuse me of lying. As a non white, non American person I feel tempted to state that your attitude is very racist and xenophobic itself, but I'm sure it's just a product of you being so full of ****.

Oh, and I never said that tone doesn't matter in a conversation, i said that tone doesn't change the content of the message. Again, learn to listen, or at least learn to read.

 

[gandalfe]

 

[Archie Moses]

I just read an opinion piece on Sports Illustrated that was a response to Korver's post. Basically, it's someone saying thanks Korver, but what you did isn't enough and where have you been. To me, it's a shot at Korver and it mimics the attitude that many people have online and even on Jazzfanz.
https://www.si.com/nba/2019/04/09/k...-jazz-hawks-russell-westbrook-thabo-sefolosha

Apparently, it's in and edgy to condemn progression. Lol To me, a society that condemns progression is a society not progressing.

It's important that Korver is recognizing his privilege, but my first question to him would be, “What were you doing when all of these white and black people around you were speaking on these things before?” And my follow-up question would go something like, “What were you doing in the past when situations like Russell Westbrook's incidenthappened around you? If so many of your teammates have experienced situations similar to Westbrook’s, where was your head that you're just now recognizing that your skin allows you to be treated differently?”


I’m not trying to be rude or sound overly critical, but Kyle, as a person 14 years younger than you who has seen you interact with black people in intimate and intellectual ways the majority of white people never experience, it’s a little disheartening to see you are just now deciding to acknowledge the racist history of the United States.

Basically, you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.

The problem is too many people want people to understand either themselves or people they identify with. If we spent more time listening, understanding why people have their perspectives rather than our own the world would be a better place.
Some people may not experience racism and, obviously, these same people do not understand it to the degree that people who see or face it continuously do. Yet, there's this mob mentality of condemning them right of the bat.
If you treat someone's conversation right of the bat as illegitimate and talk down to them, chances are you're not doing anything to help them see things differently. To them, they have their perspectives and experiences and opinions. If only we could spend a week, month, year in the shoes of someone from a different place, a different color, a different religion, etc it would help us find common ground. Finding common ground rather than telling people your views are legitimate and theirs are wrong, invalid, illegitimate, etc will help so much more with the goal of getting people to change, to understand, and to listen.

Lastly, I'm surprised that so many are defending Russell Westbrook. Let me be very clear here and say that I think telling a professional athlete to get down on their knees is not something that should be allowed and crosses the line. That said, Russell's reaction of threatening violence and violence to women that he's going to **** them up is pretty bad. Especially since Westbrook has a history of yelling at women/wives of fans.

Basically, my thoughts on the situation is the fan was out of line, Westbrook was out of line and by blaming the fan's comments on being racist, it makes it easier for people to forget what Westbrook said. I do not believe the line SH said is racist, it's homophobic and fan flexing. Yeah, I know his Twitter was full of racist things and that's the type of dude that does more harm than good. I just feel that blaming racism on things that aren't racist water downs racism and gets more people tone deaf to the cause. The media does this on a daily basis and it's creating a culture of division.

 

[Archie Moses]

What's odd about it? I believe racist people exist within every racial group. I don't believe there are systematic established advantages that any one race has over another. The advantages that we see, that many prescribe to "White Privilege" is actually class privilege. If you were born poor, you have a high probability of being poor throughout your life. If you were born wealthy, you are likely to remain wealthy. This correlates to rates of incarceration, drug use rates, single parenthood rate, high-school drop out rate, etc. This is irrespective of race.

If white privilege exists, why are Asians the highest earning racial group in the United States? Are they immune to the negative impacts of "White Privilege"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income



I'm not sure admitting that it exists will solve anything. My issue with Kyle's article is that it offered zero solutions.

The term "White Privilege" is tossed around so frequently that's it's turned into an auto-response in what otherwise could be meaningful discussions on race and equality. See below:

One thing that helped me understand systemic racism is learning more about different class privileges.

There's a reason why there is a discrepancy in the education, housing, economic earnings, etc. The system has and does influence different class privileges.

 

[idestroyedthetoilet]

The more we rehash this topic, the more bent out of shape we all get. The emotional bank account is in full effect here. Very few of the posters here feel like another poster truly loves them (cares about them on an individual level). The trouble with this is in order to have a chance to reach or change somebody you must make emotional deposits, before they will be willing to consider a withdrawal (changing their mindset, life, actions etc.)

In other words if you are not close friends or have a mutual reverence with a poster here, it may actually have the opposite outcome of what you are trying to achieve because we are missing the key ingredient of love in many instances. Another great quote that I feel is relevant here is: "Nobody wins an argument."

This asking for change without first extending love is doing a lot of damage and building tribalism and encouraging segregation. Everybody feels like nobody listens and understands, because we often omit love in our discussions and arguments.

I doubt I have the reputation to make this point, I hope you all will tolerate me posting what's on my mind.

From what I've read, for the most part there are people who want to listen and learn and discuss, and there is a small group not in a position of authority or experience who want to tell the first group what they have on mind is wrong and to shut up.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

To be clear, I welcome your conversation any time you feel you can manage joining in. While we often disagree, you give every impression of wanting to be a better person (just as I want to be a better person).

I'm only trying to recognize that you find me off-putting and don't want to engage me, so I mentioned an opportunity for that to happen. It's up to you to take it or not.

I thought that encouraging you to speak in location you found safe was the opposite of telling you to shut up.

Do you believe that every opinion that anyone has is worthy of a long, lengthy debate and to be treated as a legitimate opinion to have? Or, are you objecting to style?

I feel telling me I can go talk in the "safe conservative" thread is saying two things, go away, and it is definitely not a respectful place here to talk about this.

I do not feel every opinion is worthy of a long, lengthy debate. I do think the dismissal of someone or their opinion because we don't see it as valid defeats the whole effort of trying to come together.
There are extreme examples that I'm sure we can both agree on, but I think the line of "valid" is in a different spot for you and for me.
I wouldn't call it "style". I feel that in most cases with you there is back and forth but there is nothing gained. Either you or both are so intent on getting points across that the actual listening to understand is very straw man, or flimsy just to say it was done.

How does going to a group think thread lead to change? How about we find a way to have truly respectful and sincere conversations despite differing opinions?

 

[Thee Idiotic Minivan K]

I just read an opinion piece on Sports Illustrated that was a response to Korver's post. Basically, it's someone saying thanks Korver, but what you did isn't enough and where have you been. To me, it's a shot at Korver and it mimics the attitude that many people have online and even on Jazzfanz.
https://www.si.com/nba/2019/04/09/k...-jazz-hawks-russell-westbrook-thabo-sefolosha

Apparently, it's in and edgy to condemn progression. Lol To me, a society that condemns progression is a society not progressing.

Basically, you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.

The problem is too many people want people to understand either themselves or people they identify with. If we spent more time listening, understanding why people have their perspectives rather than our own the world would be a better place.
Some people may not experience racism and, obviously, these same people do not understand it to the degree that people who see or face it continuously do. Yet, there's this mob mentality of condemning them right of the bat.
If you treat someone's conversation right of the bat as illegitimate and talk down to them, chances are you're not doing anything to help them see things differently. To them, they have their perspectives and experiences and opinions. If only we could spend a week, month, year in the shoes of someone from a different place, a different color, a different religion, etc it would help us find common ground. Finding common ground rather than telling people your views are legitimate and theirs are wrong, invalid, illegitimate, etc will help so much more with the goal of getting people to change, to understand, and to listen.

Lastly, I'm surprised that so many are defending Russell Westbrook. Let me be very clear here and say that I think telling a professional athlete to get down on their knees is not something that should be allowed and crosses the line. That said, Russell's reaction of threatening violence and violence to women that he's going to **** them up is pretty bad. Especially since Westbrook has a history of yelling at women/wives of fans.

Basically, my thoughts on the situation is the fan was out of line, Westbrook was out of line and by blaming the fan's comments on being racist, it makes it easier for people to forget what Westbrook said. I do not believe the line SH said is racist, it's homophobic and fan flexing. Yeah, I know his Twitter was full of racist things and that's the type of dude that does more harm than good. I just feel that blaming racism on things that aren't racist water downs racism and gets more people tone deaf to the cause. The media does this on a daily basis and it's creating a culture of division.

That paragraph you pasted only tells me that the truth hurts. No one really wants to be told they need to change. Racism has evolved since after slavery was done away with. Before it was about open hate and violence. Now it’s all PC and the illusion of understanding and knowing your place in the world and it’s segregating the country. It hit Korver like a ton of bricks, when his first thoughts were of disappointment toward his friend than hearing the truth, it and made Korver stop and think and realize that this is still a problem in today’s society. The sad fact is that we really are letting hate happen, while under our noses, because of pride and our unwillingness to listen and change. No one wants to be told to change so we dig in and fight.

 

[Thee Idiotic Minivan K]

What's odd about it? I believe racist people exist within every racial group. I don't believe there are systematic established advantages that any one race has over another. The advantages that we see, that many prescribe to "White Privilege" is actually class privilege. If you were born poor, you have a high probability of being poor throughout your life. If you were born wealthy, you are likely to remain wealthy. This correlates to rates of incarceration, drug use rates, single parenthood rate, high-school drop out rate, etc. This is irrespective of race.

If white privilege exists, why are Asians the highest earning racial group in the United States? Are they immune to the negative impacts of "White Privilege"?

The privilege being spoken of has nothing to do with pay grade or situation or where you come from. A tipical black man or woman has to openly follow the letter of the law and avoid the appearance of evil, which means no drinking going to bars and nightclubs and not being out at all hours of the night because they will at some point be subjected to the system. Where as a white man can have the same care free life and as long as he breaks no rules/laws he can relax because he’s profiled as a white person that follows the laws where as a black man is automatically, in many cases up to no good.

 

[One Brow]

What's odd about it? I believe racist people exist within every racial group. I don't believe there are systematic established advantages that any one race has over another.

I don't believe it either. I accept the evidence for it.

The advantages that we see, that many prescribe to "White Privilege" is actually class privilege. If you were born poor, you have a high probability of being poor throughout your life. If you were born wealthy, you are likely to remain wealthy. This correlates to rates of incarceration, drug use rates, single parenthood rate, high-school drop out rate, etc. This is irrespective of race.

Wealth also creates privilege. However, when we limit our comparisons to the same socio-economic strata, we stil see racial differences appear. Poor white people have it a little less hard than poor black people. Rich white people have it a little easier than rich black people. The existence of one does not negate the other.

If white privilege exists, why are Asians the highest earning racial group in the United States? Are they immune to the negative impacts of "White Privilege"?

Asians also suffer from discrimination, but as you note, that can be masked by wealth. Many Asian groups came into the country with wealth, overall.

Look up "model minority".

I'm not sure admitting that it exists will solve anything. My issue with Kyle's article is that it offered zero solutions.

Perhaps Kyle is smart enough to know he's not the right person to suggest solutions.

 

[Archie Moses]

If you guys read the article, you'd see Kyle did offer solutions and a plan of action against racism. The idea that someone isn't the right person to offer solutions is shortsighted. Everyone can offer solutions to fight racism.

 

[One Brow]

You just don't listen, do you? How can you say I'm not claiming to be American or not American, to be white or not white if I just said this:

Perhaps you are not a native English speaker. When you use the phrase, "if I'm ... ?", you are indicating a hypothetical. In the context of saying that I am making an assumption, in particular, you're saying that I don't know, not making a claim to be something or not be something.

How much clearly do I have to state that I'm not white nor American?

Do it without making it a hypothetical. For example, had you said 'since if I'm not white nor American', that would have been a clear claim. Maybe it's a translation issue. At any rate, I see you made a clear claim below, so I accept that you are not white and not American.

Does your "privilege" demands for me to produce some kind of document to prove that?

1) I don't really care, and am not making any demands on you.
2) If you made a simple declarative statement, instead of couching your language in conditionals or as tangents to questions, I believed you. I have no reason to not believe you.
3) Why would you care if some random guy on the internet believes you anyhow?

Why should I have to go to a message board trying to prove my ethnicity or my nationality?

You don't.

Why should I have to prove my ethnicity or nationality to have an opinion about something?

Did you have an opinion besides 'I want to talk'?

You sure are making this board feel very welcoming to POC and foreigners with your attitude.

From the guy who says tone doesn't matter?

I never said that no one should tell me to listen, I clearly stated that my stance is "no one should tell anyone to shut up" I'm not against listening, I'm against silencing. You are deliberately twisting my words to fit what you already made up in your mind.

You mean, the way you took "shut up and listen" to mean you were not allowed to talk? Good listening is active listening.

You just read something and you racey sense started tingling so you decided to show that "whiny white American" who's who in this board, the problem is the whiny is not white, nor American.

I fully accept that the whiny is not white nor American.

Now, instead of graciously backpedaling on your stance, you accuse me of lying.

Generally, a statement preceded by an "Maybe ... " in response to one preceded by "If .... " requires no backpedaling.

As a non white, non American person I feel tempted to state that your attitude is very racist and xenophobic itself, but I'm sure it's just a product of you being so full of ****.

Either could be true.

Oh, and I never said that tone doesn't matter in a conversation, i said that tone doesn't change the content of the message. Again, learn to listen, or at least learn to read.

Thank you for the kind advice. I will disagree; tone can absolutely alter the content of a message. I see it in conversations every day.

With all that said, there is still that fact that my responses seem to have hurt your feelings. I apologize that my responses to you did not sufficiently reflect what you intended to convey. In the future, I will be careful to ask you what you actually mean in your responses.

 

[One Brow]

I just read an opinion piece on Sports Illustrated that was a response to Korver's post. Basically, it's someone saying thanks Korver, but what you did isn't enough and where have you been. To me, it's a shot at Korver and it mimics the attitude that many people have online and even on Jazzfanz.

That's not what I got out of the article. In fact, he goes out of his way to say he's not judging Korver:

That said, Kyle is allowed to grow on his own time and at his pace. We’re all ignorant to something at some point, and we can only fix that by attempting to learn and acknowledging where we fall short. As much as I think Korver could have learned these concepts of privilege and structural racism well before he felt inclined to write what he did, I can’t hold judgement against a man who has admitted his shortcomings while asking to be taught even more about the subject.

Yet the standing ovation given when a privileged person points out what’s obvious to so many others still irks me.

 

[Mission Accomplished]

If you guys read the article, you'd see Kyle did offer solutions and a plan of action against racism. The idea that someone isn't the right person to offer solutions is shortsighted. Everyone can offer solutions to fight racism.

What about kneeling for the national anthem?

Sent from my SM-N960U using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[One Brow]

I feel telling me I can go talk in the "safe conservative" thread is saying two things, go away, and it is definitely not a respectful place here to talk about this.

Then I needed to choose my words more carefully. I'm sorry that I made you feel unwelcome. I mean, I haven't even told Alaskan Assassin to shut up; why would I say that to you? I will work at getting better at telling you what I mean (in this case, that I really want you to be able to discuss these issues in a setting where you feel comfortable so doing).

I do not feel every opinion is worthy of a long, lengthy debate. I do think the dismissal of someone or their opinion because we don't see it as valid defeats the whole effort of trying to come together.
There are extreme examples that I'm sure we can both agree on, but I think the line of "valid" is in a different spot for you and for me.
I wouldn't call it "style". I feel that in most cases with you there is back and forth but there is nothing gained. Either you or both are so intent on getting points across that the actual listening to understand is very straw man, or flimsy just to say it was done.

How does going to a group think thread lead to change? How about we find a way to have truly respectful and sincere conversations despite differing opinions?

I think coming together is important, and perhaps I do get too caught up in a back-and-forth.

However, there are also some issues that don't tolerate compromise, and I refuse to compromise on them to come together.

I will work on being less confrontational with you.

 

[Archie Moses]

That's not what I got out of the article. In fact, he goes out of his way to say he's not judging Korver:

I read the article twice now and it's still confusing to me. Basically, the author makes points to support or validate Korver's piece, but then makes points to invalidate or question Korver (or vice versa.) The dude says he's not judging Korver so what's the point of writing his judgements about Korver's piece or Korver himself?

I could be missing the point of the article. I just found a lot of things in it odd.

 

[Archie Moses]

What about kneeling for the national anthem?

Sent from my SM-N960U using JazzFanz mobile app

What about it?

 

[One Brow]

I read the article twice now and it's still confusing to me. Basically, the author makes points to support or validate Korver's piece, but then makes points to invalidate or question Korver (or vice versa.)

I could be missing the point of the article. I just found a lot of things in it odd.

It's a complicated thing. Not that they are largely similar, but perhaps this will offer you some perspective. So some famous Trinitarian preacher (say, Jerry Falwell Jr.) wrote an article about how Mormons were not brainwashed cultists, but normal people following their beliefs, and that they should be treated with the same basic respect as people in any other religion, in particular, don't accuse them all of being polygamists. Would you not feel both "Well, that's right and a nice first step" and "How in the hell did you not realize that years ago?"?

 

[Bawse Dawg]

If white privilege exists, why are Asians the highest earning racial group in the United States? Are they immune to the negative impacts of "White Privilege"?

Did their ancestors come to this country chained to slave ships?

Asswipe

 

[Tak]

Perhaps you are not a native English speaker. When you use the phrase, "if I'm ... ?", you are indicating a hypothetical. In the context of saying that I am making an assumption, in particular, you're saying that I don't know, not making a claim to be something or not be something.



Do it without making it a hypothetical. For example, had you said 'since if I'm not white nor American', that would have been a clear claim. Maybe it's a translation issue. At any rate, I see you made a clear claim below, so I accept that you are not white and not American.



1) I don't really care, and am not making any demands on you.
2) If you made a simple declarative statement, instead of couching your language in conditionals or as tangents to questions, I believed you. I have no reason to not believe you.
3) Why would you care if some random guy on the internet believes you anyhow?



You don't.



Did you have an opinion besides 'I want to talk'?



From the guy who says tone doesn't matter?



You mean, the way you took "shut up and listen" to mean you were not allowed to talk? Good listening is active listening.



I fully accept that the whiny is not white nor American.



Generally, a statement preceded by an "Maybe ... " in response to one preceded by "If .... " requires no backpedaling.



Either could be true.



Thank you for the kind advice. I will disagree; tone can absolutely alter the content of a message. I see it in conversations every day.

With all that said, there is still that fact that my responses seem to have hurt your feelings. I apologize that my responses to you did not sufficiently reflect what you intended to convey. In the future, I will be careful to ask you what you actually mean in your responses.

Now you accept that I'm not white but keep lecturing me in a patronizing way? You are only making yourself look bad, the problem is you are so high up there you can't see it. As Jordan said... get some help.