Down On the Farm

[infection]

Its really just some Quin and Jazz org boot licking. Our job is to win a title... not develop JB, but giving JB some run to develop helps us in a number of ways to accomplish the first goal. Quin is a checkers player sometimes.

I just love the contradictory thoughts of "send JB to the G League" and "JB needs to learn how to play with talented players and play off ball". So he is supposed to go down there and defer to players who are way less talented than he is... and worlds less talented than his Varsity teammates???? Or will it just reinforce the habit of playing with the ball in his hands. BTW I don't think that is necessarily an issue... I think he develops into the type of player you want to handle the ball a lot.

It is such a small investment to give Butler the 10-15 minutes that Forrest gets when Mike is out... instead of investing in a mildly interesting tech stock with a small amount of funds, Quin is putting that investment into a low interest CD.

Why waste time with a CD when your bank has a high yield savings account at 0.2%?

 

[KqWIN]

I wasn't mad he was only getting 2-3 minutes at a time... something is better than nothing... I was mad he was judged based on an impossible window of opportunity. Play DM in 2-3 minute stints and he will look rough at times.

Forrest comes in and does nothing... and is rewarded for doing nothing. JB made mistakes... if you want him to do the Trent Forrest I am sure he can.

The most frustrating part of this for me is that Forrest isn't delivering any current or potential value. His version of doing nothing is just as crippling as Butler's struggle to integrate. One of those problems problems isn't going to get better, the other could be resolved in few weeks. If it was an Oni situation where the team was +19.5 with him on the court...yeah ok I can see why you keep going to him even though he basically does nothing. If it works it works, but if it doesn't....what is the point? The Forrest minutes aren't going well to begin with and could get worse the more opposing teams see him.

I hate to keep piling on the guy. He's a just a two way player, but that also describes his prospects as a player. I'm not seeing the current or potential value with him.

 

[KqWIN]

The only player with a worse net rating than TF in non-garbage time minutes over the last two seasons is Matt Thomas. He's a two way guy, that's to be expected. But he really doesn't have a "current value" case over anyone on the roster. Maybe he's killing it in practice and that's why Locke has been saying Forrest > Butler all along, but he's not showing it in the games.

 

[LogGrad98]

Why waste time with a CD when your bank has a high yield savings account at 0.2%?

Lightweight. I get 0.23%

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

The most frustrating part of this for me is that Forrest isn't delivering any current or potential value. His version of doing nothing is just as crippling as Butler's struggle to integrate. One of those problems problems isn't going to get better, the other could be resolved in few weeks. If it was an Oni situation where the team was +19.5 with him on the court...yeah ok I can see why you keep going to him even though he basically does nothing. If it works it works, but if it doesn't....what is the point? The Forrest minutes aren't going well to begin with and could get worse the more opposing teams see him.

I hate to keep piling on the guy. He's a just a two way player, but that also describes his prospects as a player. I'm not seeing the current or potential value with him.

I think it comes down to a coach viewing Forrest's do nothing approach as predictable and safe. Butler actively messing up may have the same overall effect but it feels worse.

It isn't even like Butler is making that many mistakes... its a foul here and there and just missing shots. It isn't like the nuclear mistakes that Exum would make that were maddening.

Its just wild to me to see how much separation Butler gets and not think "that could be really useful at some point". I get that the shots weren't falling to start with but there is enough history there in college to know they will at some point.

 

[Ron Mexico]

I don't care if Butler plays or not. I care a lot more about winning and making a run this year.

 

[homeytennis]

I don't care if Butler plays or not. I care a lot more about winning and making a run this year.

Quin's rotation moved a guy out tonight. It would seem that guys not playing ought to play with the Stars to stay sharp. Heck Serge Ibaka is putting in time with the Clipps GLeague team to get his mojo back.

 

[Ron Mexico]

Quin's rotation moved a guy out tonight. It would seem that guys not playing ought to play with the Stars to stay sharp. Heck Serge Ibaka is putting in time with the Clipps GLeague team to get his mojo back.

Playing with the stars doesn't help players. I don't care at all if the players go there or not. I also don't care at all if the stars win or lose.

 

[fallenchicken]

I don't care if Butler plays or not. I care a lot more about winning and making a run this year.

I feel like people are so conditioned to not being a contending-team that all they can ever think about is "developing young guys," as if that is the priority. It's not the priority. He's a second round pick, a point guard in his rookie year, we can't jeopardize games while he figures it out.

 

[infection]

I feel like people are so conditioned to not being a contending-team that all they can ever think about is "developing young guys," as if that is the priority. It's not the priority. He's a second round pick, a point guard in his rookie year, we can't jeopardize games while he figures it out.

The point would be well taken if it weren’t Forrest playing instead.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I feel like people are so conditioned to not being a contending-team that all they can ever think about is "developing young guys," as if that is the priority. It's not the priority. He's a second round pick, a point guard in his rookie year, we can't jeopardize games while he figures it out.

Allocating 3% of your playing time to a developing player does not make us OKC and does not jeopardize games. Playing Forrest over JB changes exactly zero right now. What it does is a handful of things… if he shows promise it gives you a young trade asset. It also gives you the ability to trade another guy if he’s ready to step in for 10-15 minutes a night… it also allows you to get him ready for when games actually matter. Hopefully we don’t need to use him but clips weren’t planning on starting Terrence Mann in the playoffs. They don’t get that production if they don’t play him during the year to develop him. Playoff seeding has never mattered less. Maximizing regular season wins is not the goal… just like developing JB is not the goal. Our team is old AF… giving JB 10 minutes a night might be a necessary dose of youth we need.


And I agree with @infection if the goal is to maximize every second of PT to win then go get Dunn and give him those minutes. Playing Forrest is the worst potential allocation of minutes if the ultimate goal is to win a title. He’s not a problem but he’s also not a benefit.

 

[NUMBERICA]

The point would be well taken if it weren’t Forrest playing instead.

In addition to giving Clarkson infinite leash which has been a key in the Jazz’s underwhelming start.

 

[KqWIN]

I think we should take whatever hit that comes with developing Butler....but if we're going to try our hardest to win, Forrest is not that guy either. Oni has a way better case than Forrest. Paschall is also available to play now that Gay is back. I don't agree, but I can see why Butler doesn't get minutes on this type of team. To me, the bigger sin is playing Forrest instead.

Seems like Quin and the Jazz really like Forrest and believe in him. I sensed some BS about the way Locke talked about Butler and Forrest during the preseason. There must be a ton of love for Forrest internally because it sounded like Locke was talking about TB's second jump. I personally don't see it. I think Hughes/Fitts actually have more potential to be a real rotation player down the line. Forrest is good for who he is, which is a 11-15 type player...but his shot is too limiting for him to be a real rotation player.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I think we should take whatever hit that comes with developing Butler....but if we're going to try our hardest to win, Forrest is not that guy either. Oni has a way better case than Forrest. Paschall is also available to play now that Gay is back. I don't agree, but I can see why Butler doesn't get minutes on this type of team. To me, the bigger sin is playing Forrest instead.

Seems like Quin and the Jazz really like Forrest and believe in him. I sensed some BS about the way Locke talked about Butler and Forrest during the preseason. There must be a ton of love for Forrest internally because it sounded like Locke was talking about TB's second jump. I personally don't see it. I think Hughes/Fitts actually have more potential to be a real rotation player down the line. Forrest is good for who he is, which is a 11-15 type player...but his shot is too limiting for him to be a real rotation player.

The Locke cold water came very early and I agree. I don't think Oni or Paschall are the guy there because they do need a little ball handling out of the position. Joe looks a little sloppy and if JC gets it then the shot is going up.

Fitts is intriguing to me. I might favor Hughes over Forrest. I just think like a lot of folks here if you are going to carve that time out of the rotation for Forrest... maybe allocate it to someone who is mega disruptive on defense like Dunn or give it to a better development prospect.

I know Quin has been viewed as the development coach but he seems to have very different leashes for different players and doesn't always give the guys room to figure things out.

 

[KqWIN]

The Locke cold water came very early and I agree. I don't think Oni or Paschall are the guy there because they do need a little ball handling out of the position. Joe looks a little sloppy and if JC gets it then the shot is going up.

Fitts is intriguing to me. I might favor Hughes over Forrest. I just think like a lot of folks here if you are going to carve that time out of the rotation for Forrest... maybe allocate it to someone who is mega disruptive on defense like Dunn or give it to a better development prospect.

I know Quin has been viewed as the development coach but he seems to have very different leashes for different players and doesn't always give the guys room to figure things out.

I see your point with Paschall and Oni. I do think we’re a little light on ball handling of Joe or JC are worse than we expect.

The only reason I’m still an Oni backer is because it did work last season. Out of all our players in the past two seasons Oni has the best on court rating in non-garbage time. It’s not because Oni is an amazing player, but it’s a lot better than Forrest who is second worst to Matt freaking Thomas.

If we’re not into development a different defensive disrupter might be better. Dunn is not the guy I would pick because of his injury history, but I get the idea.

I just think that if we’re serious about improving the defense, that needs to be done at a real rotation player level...not the 3 minutes level. I think the role we’re talking about is best used for development.

 

[Hekate]

Oh man, the Forrest love ended as soon as a shinier toy came. The swing is ridiculous.

Forrest knows his role which is the most important thing for a role player. He knows he needs to give up the ball when he crosses the halfcourt and provides much needed ball security in Non-conley minutes. He is also a plus defender. Not great though. His passivity is overstated, he gets 2-3 minutes and doesn't hog the ball like Butler. The defense hasn't been sagging off him yet either like they did last year.

For Butler, any minutes > no minutes. He should be spending time at G-League because extra practice and game time because he isn't getting any with the Jazz if he doesn't improve.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Oh man, the Forrest love ended as soon as a shinier toy came. The swing is ridiculous.

Forrest knows his role which is the most important thing for a role player. He knows he needs to give up the ball when he crosses the halfcourt and provides much needed ball security in Non-conley minutes. He is also a plus defender. Not great though. His passivity is overstated, he gets 2-3 minutes and doesn't hog the ball like Butler. The defense hasn't been sagging off him yet either like they did last year.

For Butler, any minutes > no minutes. He should be spending time at G-League because extra practice and game time because he isn't getting any with the Jazz if he doesn't improve.

Where does this Butler as a ball hog thing come from? When he played in non garbage time they put him in the corner Oni style. Is it from the preseason where he lead rookies in scoring while also getting 4+ assists.

If you want ball handling and immediately passing im a pretty sure Butler is just as good if not better than Forrest. His handle is quite good.

I know Forrest is likely the better defender but Butler has been fine. I also saw when Forrest tried to run some offense and guys ducked under every pick… he’s had a lot of drives to know here because they ignore him.

It’s trivial and may not matter at all… I think it shows a lack of vision though. It was clearly the plan to play him a few minutes and he lost those minutes because of poor performance in a couple games… if you are only gifting a tiny amount of minutes it’s pretty unfair to then yank the kid because he missed shots in that tiny window. It’s an impossible situation unless you just don’t shoot at all and dribble around and make low risk passes. Forrest wins the minutes by shrinking a small role into an invisible one.

 

[NAOS]

Where does this Butler as a ball hog thing come from? When he played in non garbage time they put him in the corner Oni style. Is it from the preseason where he lead rookies in scoring while also getting 4+ assists.

If you want ball handling and immediately passing im a pretty sure Butler is just as good if not better than Forrest. His handle is quite good.

I know Forrest is likely the better defender but Butler has been fine. I also saw when Forrest tried to run some offense and guys ducked under every pick… he’s had a lot of drives to know here because they ignore him.

It’s trivial and may not matter at all… I think it shows a lack of vision though. It was clearly the plan to play him a few minutes and he lost those minutes because of poor performance in a couple games… if you are only gifting a tiny amount of minutes it’s pretty unfair to then yank the kid because he missed shots in that tiny window. It’s an impossible situation unless you just don’t shoot at all and dribble around and make low risk passes. Forrest wins the minutes by shrinking a small role into an invisible one.

Re: your last paragraph:
I don’t think that’s clear at all. It’s entirely possible that the plan was to get him integrated with the culture of the team during the initial road-heavy stretch, and then to take advantage of this home-heavy stretch by getting him more reps with the development squad. We may disagree with that, but it’s entirely possible that Butler hasn’t lost anything. It’s also possible that he has.

 

[SoberasHotRod]

Where does this Butler as a ball hog thing come from? When he played in non garbage time they put him in the corner Oni style. Is it from the preseason where he lead rookies in scoring while also getting 4+ assists.

If you want ball handling and immediately passing im a pretty sure Butler is just as good if not better than Forrest. His handle is quite good.

I know Forrest is likely the better defender but Butler has been fine. I also saw when Forrest tried to run some offense and guys ducked under every pick… he’s had a lot of drives to know here because they ignore him.

It’s trivial and may not matter at all… I think it shows a lack of vision though. It was clearly the plan to play him a few minutes and he lost those minutes because of poor performance in a couple games… if you are only gifting a tiny amount of minutes it’s pretty unfair to then yank the kid because he missed shots in that tiny window. It’s an impossible situation unless you just don’t shoot at all and dribble around and make low risk passes. Forrest wins the minutes by shrinking a small role into an invisible one.

Butler's biggest issue is you can see him think as he plays. I'm not sure how much is not knowing/understanding the offense vs adjusting to NBA speed and length. I don't think he's getting pulled for missing shots, I think he's getting pulled for looking lost.

He can learn the offensive sets in the G-League, but not necessarily the role he'll play in those sets on the Jazz. He can adjust to a length and speed above college in the G-league, but will still be way behind NBA length and speed. So I guess I'm saying the G-League isn't worthless, just almost worthless.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Re: your last paragraph:
I don’t think that’s clear at all. It’s entirely possible that the plan was to get him integrated with the culture of the team during the initial road-heavy stretch, and then to take advantage of this home-heavy stretch by getting him more reps with the development squad. We may disagree with that, but it’s entirely possible that Butler hasn’t lost anything. It’s also possible that he has.

Maybe. I think they felt pressure based on his great preseason to have him in the rotation. He made a few defensive mistakes and missed shots so I think Quin may have changed the plan. Could be wrong but I feel it’s the most logical explanation… and it isn’t like Quin gives young players a lot of room to eff up. Donovan was different as it was necessary…

The payoff isn’t even this year… it’s just that these things have stepping stones and if they are really concerned with the things about Butler that they say they are then I am not sure G league is the place for him. It’s better than nothing but it’s kind of a toss up for me… I might rather have him spending as mush time as possible learning from our vets with the varsity squad.

I think JB and Forrest are roughly equal right now but feel JB has a much bigger upside. We need a sample of what he can bring as a way to plan for next year as well as we may need him at some point this year. I just don’t think the g league will tell you much about what you’ve got… certainly not enough to give you the confidence to trade JC this summer or not bring in a vet to replace Joe.

There is also the asset play. If he shows some potential he becomes a trade asset we don’t really have. A few flashes combined with his great preseason (and maybe a g league game or two) and you might be able to swipe something useful when teams close up shop for the year.

I obviously think very highly of him as a prospect. I don’t hate Forrest but I have zero confidence he will ever have an acceptable outside shot. His defense is solid but it’s nothing to write home to mom about. If you did have to play him in the playoffs teams wouldn’t respect his shot at all… it just feels like a marching band to nowhere type of path.