Down On the Farm

[Handlogten's Heros]

Oh man, the Forrest love ended as soon as a shinier toy came. The swing is ridiculous.

Forrest knows his role which is the most important thing for a role player. He knows he needs to give up the ball when he crosses the halfcourt and provides much needed ball security in Non-conley minutes. He is also a plus defender. Not great though. His passivity is overstated, he gets 2-3 minutes and doesn't hog the ball like Butler. The defense hasn't been sagging off him yet either like they did last year.

For Butler, any minutes > no minutes. He should be spending time at G-League because extra practice and game time because he isn't getting any with the Jazz if he doesn't improve.

Where does this Butler as a ball hog thing come from? When he played in non garbage time they put him in the corner Oni style. Is it from the preseason where he lead rookies in scoring while also getting 4+ assists.

If you want ball handling and immediately passing im a pretty sure Butler is just as good if not better than Forrest. His handle is quite good.

I know Forrest is likely the better defender but Butler has been fine. I also saw when Forrest tried to run some offense and guys ducked under every pick… he’s had a lot of drives to know here because they ignore him.

It’s trivial and may not matter at all… I think it shows a lack of vision though. It was clearly the plan to play him a few minutes and he lost those minutes because of poor performance in a couple games… if you are only gifting a tiny amount of minutes it’s pretty unfair to then yank the kid because he missed shots in that tiny window. It’s an impossible situation unless you just don’t shoot at all and dribble around and make low risk passes. Forrest wins the minutes by shrinking a small role into an invisible one.

 

[NAOS]

Where does this Butler as a ball hog thing come from? When he played in non garbage time they put him in the corner Oni style. Is it from the preseason where he lead rookies in scoring while also getting 4+ assists.

If you want ball handling and immediately passing im a pretty sure Butler is just as good if not better than Forrest. His handle is quite good.

I know Forrest is likely the better defender but Butler has been fine. I also saw when Forrest tried to run some offense and guys ducked under every pick… he’s had a lot of drives to know here because they ignore him.

It’s trivial and may not matter at all… I think it shows a lack of vision though. It was clearly the plan to play him a few minutes and he lost those minutes because of poor performance in a couple games… if you are only gifting a tiny amount of minutes it’s pretty unfair to then yank the kid because he missed shots in that tiny window. It’s an impossible situation unless you just don’t shoot at all and dribble around and make low risk passes. Forrest wins the minutes by shrinking a small role into an invisible one.

Re: your last paragraph:
I don’t think that’s clear at all. It’s entirely possible that the plan was to get him integrated with the culture of the team during the initial road-heavy stretch, and then to take advantage of this home-heavy stretch by getting him more reps with the development squad. We may disagree with that, but it’s entirely possible that Butler hasn’t lost anything. It’s also possible that he has.

 

[SoberasHotRod]

Where does this Butler as a ball hog thing come from? When he played in non garbage time they put him in the corner Oni style. Is it from the preseason where he lead rookies in scoring while also getting 4+ assists.

If you want ball handling and immediately passing im a pretty sure Butler is just as good if not better than Forrest. His handle is quite good.

I know Forrest is likely the better defender but Butler has been fine. I also saw when Forrest tried to run some offense and guys ducked under every pick… he’s had a lot of drives to know here because they ignore him.

It’s trivial and may not matter at all… I think it shows a lack of vision though. It was clearly the plan to play him a few minutes and he lost those minutes because of poor performance in a couple games… if you are only gifting a tiny amount of minutes it’s pretty unfair to then yank the kid because he missed shots in that tiny window. It’s an impossible situation unless you just don’t shoot at all and dribble around and make low risk passes. Forrest wins the minutes by shrinking a small role into an invisible one.

Butler's biggest issue is you can see him think as he plays. I'm not sure how much is not knowing/understanding the offense vs adjusting to NBA speed and length. I don't think he's getting pulled for missing shots, I think he's getting pulled for looking lost.

He can learn the offensive sets in the G-League, but not necessarily the role he'll play in those sets on the Jazz. He can adjust to a length and speed above college in the G-league, but will still be way behind NBA length and speed. So I guess I'm saying the G-League isn't worthless, just almost worthless.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Re: your last paragraph:
I don’t think that’s clear at all. It’s entirely possible that the plan was to get him integrated with the culture of the team during the initial road-heavy stretch, and then to take advantage of this home-heavy stretch by getting him more reps with the development squad. We may disagree with that, but it’s entirely possible that Butler hasn’t lost anything. It’s also possible that he has.

Maybe. I think they felt pressure based on his great preseason to have him in the rotation. He made a few defensive mistakes and missed shots so I think Quin may have changed the plan. Could be wrong but I feel it’s the most logical explanation… and it isn’t like Quin gives young players a lot of room to eff up. Donovan was different as it was necessary…

The payoff isn’t even this year… it’s just that these things have stepping stones and if they are really concerned with the things about Butler that they say they are then I am not sure G league is the place for him. It’s better than nothing but it’s kind of a toss up for me… I might rather have him spending as mush time as possible learning from our vets with the varsity squad.

I think JB and Forrest are roughly equal right now but feel JB has a much bigger upside. We need a sample of what he can bring as a way to plan for next year as well as we may need him at some point this year. I just don’t think the g league will tell you much about what you’ve got… certainly not enough to give you the confidence to trade JC this summer or not bring in a vet to replace Joe.

There is also the asset play. If he shows some potential he becomes a trade asset we don’t really have. A few flashes combined with his great preseason (and maybe a g league game or two) and you might be able to swipe something useful when teams close up shop for the year.

I obviously think very highly of him as a prospect. I don’t hate Forrest but I have zero confidence he will ever have an acceptable outside shot. His defense is solid but it’s nothing to write home to mom about. If you did have to play him in the playoffs teams wouldn’t respect his shot at all… it just feels like a marching band to nowhere type of path.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Butler's biggest issue is you can see him think as he plays. I'm not sure how much is not knowing/understanding the offense vs adjusting to NBA speed and length. I don't think he's getting pulled for missing shots, I think he's getting pulled for looking lost.

He can learn the offensive sets in the G-League, but not necessarily the role he'll play in those sets on the Jazz. He can adjust to a length and speed above college in the G-league, but will still be way behind NBA length and speed. So I guess I'm saying the G-League isn't worthless, just almost worthless.

With young guys I think part of that “thinking too much” is being worried they get pulled. I think as a coach you just have to commit to living with it. I don’t feel like Quin gave it enough time. It was a wishy washy.

Side rant: I also think we need to separate the ideas of "we are here to win a championship" and "we can't play young guys because we are in win now mode". Playoff seeding does not matter. Get the top seed in the western conference and you may pull Memphis or you might get an LAL team that is now healthy or a Denver team with a healthy Murray.... home court is nice but it isn't the end all be all. Getting a young guy some seasoning in the regular season does not mean we are in deviating from championship or bust... and it may actually be the right move if our goals are championship or bust.

 

[NAOS]

Maybe. I think they felt pressure based on his great preseason to have him in the rotation. He made a few defensive mistakes and missed shots so I think Quin may have changed the plan. Could be wrong but I feel it’s the most logical explanation… and it isn’t like Quin gives young players a lot of room to eff up. Donovan was different as it was necessary…

The payoff isn’t even this year… it’s just that these things have stepping stones and if they are really concerned with the things about Butler that they say they are then I am not sure G league is the place for him. It’s better than nothing but it’s kind of a toss up for me… I might rather have him spending as mush time as possible learning from our vets with the varsity squad.

I think JB and Forrest are roughly equal right now but feel JB has a much bigger upside. We need a sample of what he can bring as a way to plan for next year as well as we may need him at some point this year. I just don’t think the g league will tell you much about what you’ve got… certainly not enough to give you the confidence to trade JC this summer or not bring in a vet to replace Joe.

There is also the asset play. If he shows some potential he becomes a trade asset we don’t really have. A few flashes combined with his great preseason (and maybe a g league game or two) and you might be able to swipe something useful when teams close up shop for the year.

I obviously think very highly of him as a prospect. I don’t hate Forrest but I have zero confidence he will ever have an acceptable outside shot. His defense is solid but it’s nothing to write home to mom about. If you did have to play him in the playoffs teams wouldn’t respect his shot at all… it just feels like a marching band to nowhere type of path.

I agree with all of this. I think the next 20 games will reveal a lot more in terms what Q/FO is thinking.

 

[NAOS]

Side rant: I also think we need to separate the ideas of "we are here to win a championship" and "we can't play young guys because we are in win now mode". Playoff seeding does not matter. Get the top seed in the western conference and you may pull Memphis or you might get an LAL team that is now healthy or a Denver team with a healthy Murray.... home court is nice but it isn't the end all be all. Getting a young guy some seasoning in the regular season does not mean we are in deviating from championship or bust... and it may actually be the right move if our goals are championship or bust.

All this

 

[Hekate]

Where does this Butler as a ball hog thing come from? When he played in non garbage time they put him in the corner Oni style. Is it from the preseason where he lead rookies in scoring while also getting 4+ assists.

If you want ball handling and immediately passing im a pretty sure Butler is just as good if not better than Forrest. His handle is quite good.

I know Forrest is likely the better defender but Butler has been fine. I also saw when Forrest tried to run some offense and guys ducked under every pick… he’s had a lot of drives to know here because they ignore him.

It’s trivial and may not matter at all… I think it shows a lack of vision though. It was clearly the plan to play him a few minutes and he lost those minutes because of poor performance in a couple games… if you are only gifting a tiny amount of minutes it’s pretty unfair to then yank the kid because he missed shots in that tiny window. It’s an impossible situation unless you just don’t shoot at all and dribble around and make low risk passes. Forrest wins the minutes by shrinking a small role into an invisible one.

I wrote an answer to each paragraph and it wouldn't let me post it because of security reasons. Then I saved it for draft but it got deleted anyways. Wtf, @jazzfanz?

The gist of it was that I think competition is better for both Forrest and Butler. Butler isn't in need of minutes like Exum was. We won't look back at his first 15 games when all is said and done. I believe they will replace each other during the season.

And everyone knows that everyone is already set when Forrest brings up the ball and is ready for the play. Butler spends too much settling into dribbles from what my eyes tell me. I watched every game except Philly and Raptors 2nd half.

 

[idiot]

Anyone else notice that Malik Fitts has shrunk from 6-8 on the Jazz to 6-5 on the Stars? Just from a rough eyballing, I'd probably split the difference for his accurate height.

 

[homeytennis]

Stars lost tonight. Fitts and Butler were over 20 points. Fitts looked good Butler looked like garbage. I thought everyone on the Stars besides Fitts looked horrible. Butler showed some big holes in his game tonight.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

Anyone else notice that Malik Fitts has shrunk from 6-8 on the Jazz to 6-5 on the Stars? Just from a rough eyballing, I'd probably split the difference for his accurate height.

I think he's probably 6'6" w/o shoes. He's at least an inch taller than Hughes. With shoes, I'd believe he's 6'7". He also has a 7' wingspan, which helps him make defensive plays.

Fitts had a really nice game tonight -- 27pts, 5rebs, 2asts, 4stls, 2blks and zero TOs. He and Butler look like NBA players. The other guys are questionable, including Dok and Hughes. Fitts is also shooting 36% from 3pt and averages 3 stls and 2.5 blks through 2 G-league games.

Hughes has had some bad misses and bad turnovers. I just don't believe in him creating with the ball in his hands or shooting off the dribble.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

Here are Fitts highlights. He's clearly an NBA athlete with good size and defensive instincts for a wing. Able to guard 2 - 4 in most cases. Decent 3pt shooter when he squares up on balance. Able to finish in the paint with Euro-steps, rip-throughs and hard drives. He can push the ball end-to-end and has pretty good vision and and accuracy on passes. The thing that stands out to me is his ability to play at NBA speed. I'd say he's further along than Hughes and Oni. He really looks the part of a two-way, athletic wing for the modern game.