What about the rest of the series and the other series you were talking about?
Are there any changes in our roster to effect that? Was our main offensive weapon getting hurt have any effect on that moment?
Trade deadline discussion
- Thread starter Jingled
- Start date
What about the rest of the series and the other series you were talking about?
Are there any changes in our roster to effect that? Was our main offensive weapon getting hurt have any effect on that moment?
Of course. My point isn’t to say our offense is abysmal and that our defense is good. I’m right there with everyone saying our defense is awful and we can sacrifice some offense, but the bigger issue is the mental component and that won’t be addressed purely by defense, and I reference the offense suffering in these moments as well to highlight what I feel is the overarching variable that’s effecting everything. Addressing the defense is good and necessary, but it may not be sufficient.
Okay, fair enough. I don't see it that way, but I understand the point you're making.
I agree with the fact that adding a player that's better on defense isn't going to change things. We need to play team defense and put effort everywhere at it to improve that end. In that way I see it being "mental." I don't see much of mental weakness offensively especially in the playoffs. I see our playoffs weakness being health as by far our biggest issue, followed by poor team defense and effort throughout the entire game on that end, and 3rd being personnel. But changing personnel could change the other things.
campaignist
Well-Known Member
Agreed. I was completely wrong in the off-season, I was pushing Bogie as the logical guy to move. He’s really not the problem, at least not the biggest one on defense. And I trust him more than pretty much anyone else on the team in crunch time, even Conley. Losing what he brings would be a much bigger hit than anyone is anticipating.
We didn’t have Bogey for a series and played elite offensively and we didn’t have Conley and played elite offensively. I think there’s more than enough room to spare some offense for defense. Whether that’s Bogey/Ingles/Clarkson, I don’t think any of them should be off limits. Yeah, we’d miss them. But you know what I really miss right now? Not embarrassing ourselves defensively in the playoffs.
Conley would fit in this category too, but he’s just a lot better than them on both ends. He’s our best bet against Ja, CP3, and Curry….which is a testament to Mike but also embarrassing for the rest of the team.
If Bogey could get Smart, which might only be available if the Simmons-Brown trade happens, I’d do that. I know there are concerns about size, but to me Smart is better in every “big man” category on defense than Bogey.
Ideally you move Clarkson. I think he’s the least helpful and might get phased out during the playoffs….but nobody is going to want him right now.
We should have shipped someone to NOP this summer for Hart and some picks back. Too bad that fleecing window is probably over.
Katastrofica
Well-Known Member
U know what would be best for start? Somehow force Don to play some defense. U can't make bojan faster or royce taller but what u can is make one of most athletic guy in team to put some effort atlest. Someone posted raptors info's and this is hilarious...
There is no doubt that Don’s defensive development is disappointing. He’s creating more turnovers this year….but his defense is still bad.
OTOH, Don has been a supernova on offense. Carrying us to elite offensive outputs despite being a man shouldn’t be taken lightly. When Bogey was out, Mike played great but his usage didn’t pick up. Don picked up the offensive load and did great. Same think when Mike was out. Bogey played well but his usage also dropped.
Don’s play can be frustrating and he takes too much on, even during the playoffs when he’s on fire. But his game scales to the playoffs so we’ll because he plays on hard mode the entire year (self inflicted much of the time). I think Bogey and Conley can be great offensive players as they have, but they can’t rise up the same way Don does.
If he’s going to be this damn good on offense it’s hard to complain. You can’t make Bogey and Ingles faster or have Jordan Clarkson play defense, but you might be able to trade one of them for someone who can.
Ive said it before but just repeating. I dont understand the love for Smart. He iisnt a good offensive player, he doesnt seem to be a good teammate, and seems to have a poor temperament. As far as defense goes he has a high motor and seems to play bigger. He is undersized besides the PG position. He doesnt really hold players hes guarding to a lower shooting number. This season he is pretty middle of the pack for his team and basically players are shooting their averages when he guards them (granted thats an improvement for a lot of our players). He is a poor 3 point shooter but he shoots a lot. He does create okay with drives and kicks but I think he would be much lower than others on our team. His net rating is never impressive and is usually middle of the pack for his team. This year for example his defensive rating is pretty low compared to his teammates. I think he has some intangibles that are positive. He just seems like such a poor fit for our team and doesnt add much to areas we need. I guess he could plug into Clarksons spot and improve defense there.
But I know I am in the minority here since most people love him. So this means we will probably get him and ill convince myself to get on board, then be disappointed later, like Clarkson.
But I know I am in the minority here since most people love him. So this means we will probably get him and ill convince myself to get on board, then be disappointed later, like Clarkson.
Smart is definitely an eye test guy, but he’s also and advanced numbers guy. They all love him and really rate his defense. He doesn’t stand out in the traditional stats but you can see how he can rate out so well when watching him. Just makes so many plays on the court and is everywhere.
I don’t think he’s undersized, he’s built like a tank and does a good job fighting against bigger players. If we matched up in a series against the Lakers, I’d rather him guard LeBron than Royce. He’d be my first choice, as he would for Steph Curry. His strength and versatility on defense is great.
I’m a fan of his personality, especially for this team. He seems to be getting Jimmy Butler exiled in Boston. Maybe he’s not a great fit around young players trying to establish themselves as scorers, but for a team that’s trying to win a championship and is sorely lacking in the toughness and effort areas he would be a welcome addition.
1. conley is better than dm and JC for sure but those 2 are just terrible defenders
2. Conley's is good for regular season. not so much in the playoffs. he was surrounded by defensive guys in memphis but how far did that team go?
3. Gobert is elite at team defense but ineffective vs elite bigs like embiid, jokic, towns even sabonis. he is still important in modern NBA.
4. i agree he regressed in defense and must improve but he is not the biggest problem.
the biggest problem is FO. we didnt address perimeter defense instead we picked up Ersan?
Which numbers are the ones that like him? I dont see much like the ones I posted, which are not traditional stats at all.
There's a rumor that the Hawks are open to trading John Collins. It would take a lot, I know, but the Jazz have to at least discuss it. He'd be a great fit with Gobert and Mitchell for the next 3 years.
The catch alls all typically like him. LEBRON, Raptor, EPM, BPM ect. Compared to Bogey, for example, he always comes out ahead.
I was going to say Smart is the defensive version of Bogey, but that might be selling him short. We shouldn’t read these numbers like gospel, but when it’s near unanimous in one player’s favor you have to think. Then you look at something general like preseason NBA rank lists and Smart is also higher.
He isnt rated very high in any of those this year or recently. Pretty average. His defense numbers arent anything special on those. Maybe comes out better than Bogey but that is a pretty low standard for defense. He seems to rank lower than Royce in all of those. On RAPTOR Smart is 71st and Royce is 65th. In the real +/- for last year Smart is ranked 119th. There isnt numbers for this year but for comparison Gobert was #1, Royce was #18, even Bojan is 63rd. Even Conley is rated higher on almost every advanced stat on both ends of the court.
I think Smart is a better defender than Mitchell, Clarkson, and Bogey. But again that is a low standard and I dont see him as much of an improvement, especially considering his poor shooting.
I will buy the eye test and him being all of the place idea though. He does have a big motor and hustles every where. I think that energy could be helpful on the team. But I think plenty of other players can give that for a much cheaper price.
I dont think he would fit next to them if you have to trade one to get him. What else would we offer that wouldnt get laughed off the phone for?
The odds are 0.000488 of flipping 12 tails in a row.
SoberasHotRod
Well-Known Member
I personally love Smart. I love to watch him play and have since watching him play in college. I think you've done a good job of bringing real numbers to the table here. It's true that defensive metrics are very messy, but when all of them point to the same conclusion then it's probably good to pay attention.
I can imagine that playing with Rudy can hurt someone's defensive effort, especially those who are not predisposition to be good defenders. I wonder if Rudy would improve the defensive intensity for someone who prides themselves as a defender. I imagine Marcus Smart might feel even more free to play super aggressive knowing he has Rudy to back him up.
campaignist
Well-Known Member
Okay, are you saying you’d swap Bogey for Smart and roll out a lineup of Conley-Mitchell-Smart-O’Neale-Gobert? Rudy is the only guy taller than 6’4” in that lineup. That is *tiny* even for the modern NBA. As much as I think Smart would help, getting even smaller as a team isn’t the best course of action.