On the record...

[Elizah Huge]

However much you believe that Blazer value Keon, the Jazz could have absolutely beat it in a way that would have improved the team. You can go back to the threads when this happened. It's fine to change your opinion, but don't act like this is some kind of crazy opinion. Everyone thought LAC got away with one. We can agree to disagree here, but this trade really makes it hard for to believe that we tried everything we could and didn't find a way to improve the team. It's not like Roco and Powell. There was a long list of players that would have really brought something to this team, some of them probably couldn't be acquire, but I just can't get behind the idea that these guys were impossible to get and that we tried everything we could to do something. The theory that Keon's value to POR was so high the trade couldn't be done just isn't very plausible to me.

So how does that happen, why did we not do that? It can be a couple different things. Either Ainge/FO was unaware that he could make that deal could be made, or it was not in alignment with the plan that they had already decided on to blow it up. I initially thought that Part Time Danny was a thing and he might have just been content to collect a check from his friend, but given what's happened in this off-season and Danny's history, I've begun to believe that he probably came in with the plan to blow things up already. That makes the most sense to me and I think it gives Danny the benefit of the doubt. At the very least, I think he had a good idea of what he wanted and that he was tilted towards blowing it up versus building around Don/Rudy. That's fine, but it's just my personal opinion that we should have valued the opportunity of having Don/Rudy together more than we did. Yes

The other option would be that they actually thought this team was good enough or better without those trades. Like I said, they wouldn't be the only people who that. I still can't believe the moaning and groaning we had on the idea of acquiring Smart, but I do have to acknowledge that it wasn't popular to actually want to execute that trade. I don't know if Danny would have traded Bogey for Smart straight up or if that was even an option, but I do know people heavily opposed that trade on this forum. If that's the case, it's certainly not a "we tried everything we could". It fits into that grass isn't always greener attitude that I mentioned.

That deal got Portland under the tax and added 20M onto the Clippers luxury tax payment. We don’t have an asset like Keon plus would we have been willing to add that much long-term salary and add that much to our luxury tax payment? Are those two the difference in us making it to the Finals minus the pieces we would have sent out as well?

 

[Elizah Huge]

I think Rudy's value was highest right now, Don I'm not so sure about. I think his value doesn't really change much in the next few years because of his established status and age. But it's really not about getting the most trade value out of those two, it's about giving the franchise the best chance of winning. I definitely would have shuffled around some pieces and gotten a new coach. If it still didn't work, you can still trade those guys. It's not like they disappear. I think the coaching and roster were so incredibly flawed around those two that it left so much room for improvement. In any case, it was really painful to waste the Don/Rudy era on roster that were very obviously flawed. It's truly one of the greatest failures of this franchise.

I think Donovan’s value decreases every year he has one less year on his contract.

 

[KqWIN]

It's so dumb to trade good players for copious amounts of worthless picks...

How'd you get those good players...

With worthless picks.

k

If you hit two half court shots, do you continue to keep shooting them because they win? If you're under the impression that we can get Don and Rudy again with picks, the likelihood of that happening in the first place has to be considered. No this is not me saying they are worthless. Those picks are not worthless and no one has said that. What has been said is that those picks are being overvalued, but this wouldn't be Jazzfanz if there wasn't a made up argument to debate against. Seriously, does anyone find it productive to make something up and then argue against it? I find it very tiresome and unlike those picks it is worthless.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

However much you believe that Blazer value Keon, the Jazz could have absolutely beat it in a way that would have improved the team. You can go back to the threads when this happened. It's fine to change your opinion, but don't act like this is some kind of crazy opinion. Everyone thought LAC got away with one. We can agree to disagree here, but this trade really makes it hard for to believe that we tried everything we could and didn't find a way to improve the team. It's not like Roco and Powell. There was a long list of players that would have really brought something to this team, some of them probably couldn't be acquire, but I just can't get behind the idea that these guys were impossible to get and that we tried everything we could to do something. The theory that Keon's value to POR was so high the trade couldn't be done just isn't very plausible to me.

It could have been beaten but are you giving an unprotected 2028 pick? Likely 1or 2 of Bogey, Royce, JC in that deal as well... clips also saved them a bunch of money with last year's tax. Does swapping Bogey+Ingles and an unprotected far out first for RoCo and Powell mean we beat Dallas? Does it make Donovan play defense? Is it a bandaid or a long term fix?

Trying within reason does not equal not trying.

So how does that happen, why did we not do that? It can be a couple different things. Either Ainge/FO was unaware that he could make that deal could be made, or it was not in alignment with the plan that they had already decided on to blow it up. I initially thought that Part Time Danny was a thing and he might have just been content to collect a check from his friend, but given what's happened in this off-season and Danny's history, I've begun to believe that he probably came in with the plan to blow things up already. That makes the most sense to me and I think it gives Danny the benefit of the doubt. At the very least, I think he had a good idea of what he wanted and that he was tilted towards blowing it up versus building around Don/Rudy. That's fine, but it's just my personal opinion that we should have valued the opportunity of having Don/Rudy together more than we did. Yes

Really... that's what you think... you think he walked into the team that finished with the best record a year ago and was like "watch how quickly I can tear this **** up".

The other option would be that they actually thought this team was good enough or better without those trades. Like I said, they wouldn't be the only people who that. I still can't believe the moaning and groaning we had on the idea of acquiring Smart, but I do have to acknowledge that it wasn't popular to actually want to execute that trade. I don't know if Danny would have traded Bogey for Smart straight up or if that was even an option, but I do know people heavily opposed that trade on this forum. If that's the case, it's certainly not a "we tried everything we could". It fits into that grass isn't always greener attitude that I mentioned.

Well like 75% of the board would have been all good on a Bogey for Smart trade. Now if its Bogey and an unprotected 2028 pick... well I might go ahead and pass there.

If you thought we were a legit contender last year I think its optimistic but if you thought we were a contender after the post mortem on how dysfunctional the locker room has been then its straight delusional. If you are just happy being a first round exit (thats what we were and would project to be next year even if we shuffled so many deck chairs)... then I'm actually cool with that. Would an already unhappy group be cool with that?

I just think Danny tried to make reasonable moves and there weren't many good options... he read the writing on the wall and chose the path that provides the most long-term value.

 

[KqWIN]

That deal got Portland under the tax and added 20M onto the Clippers luxury tax payment. We don’t have an asset like Keon plus would we have been willing to add that much long-term salary and add that much to our luxury tax payment? Are those two the difference in us making it to the Finals minus the pieces we would have sent out as well?

I definitely think we could have found the right matching salary and outgoing future facing asset to beat that trade if we had put Bogey, Clarkson, O'Neale etc. on the table.

Are those two the difference between us and the finals? Who knows, all hypothetical. What we do know is that those were the exact type of players we needed and that the roster we did have could not make it to the finals. I also think this line of thinking is flawed because it implies that the alternative guarantees success. Does getting Roco and Powell guarantee us the finals? Hell no. Does sitting doing nothing guarantee us the finals? Hell no. Does trading Rudy and Don for picks guarantee us finals? Also Hell no. It's about the likelihood of things happening, and it's not enough to just say one thing is unlikely without considering how likely the alternative is.

 

[Elizah Huge]

Ingles + Clarkson + our 2028 unprotected 1st would have had to be the deal to get Powell and Covington.

Is that what we should have done? Not been able to trade a 1st for the rest of the decade until 2030 for those two guys while losing Clarkson as well?

Not to mention adding long-term salary and adding a lot to our luxury tax payment. That argument wasn’t really well thought out.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

If you hit two half court shots, do you continue to keep shooting them because they win? If you're under the impression that we can get Don and Rudy again with picks, the likelihood of that happening in the first place has to be considered. No this is not me saying they are worthless. Those picks are not worthless and no one has said that. What has been said is that those picks are being overvalued, but this wouldn't be Jazzfanz if there wasn't a made up argument to debate against. Seriously, does anyone find it productive to make something up and then argue against it? I find it very tiresome and unlike those picks it is worthless.

Ummm sir... there are dudes saying they are ****ing raffle tickets... that is literally worthless... no one stays until the end to claim their raffle prize at any event. I ain't doing straw man ****.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Would be a huge risk for a guy coming off a major injury.

Cleveland is going about this pretty smart. YEah it will piss Sexton off, but he isn't one of their main dudes and they are probably going to get him on a great deal that will be highly tradeable.

I don’t think they really want him and are just playing an asset game.

I think there is a good chance he’s here next year.

 

[KqWIN]

Ummm sir... there are dudes saying they are ****ing raffle tickets... that is literally worthless... no one stays until the end to claim their raffle prize at any event. I ain't doing straw man ****.

Yeah, calling them raffle tickets is a vague expression, but that does not mean it's worthless. Are you throwing away a raffle ticket if there's 80% of a chance at winning one billion dollars? You're not. You're simply taking the least charitable interpretation of an expression because it is the easiest to argue against.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

If you hit two half court shots, do you continue to keep shooting them because they win? If you're under the impression that we can get Don and Rudy again with picks, the likelihood of that happening in the first place has to be considered. No this is not me saying they are worthless. Those picks are not worthless and no one has said that. What has been said is that those picks are being overvalued, but this wouldn't be Jazzfanz if there wasn't a made up argument to debate against. Seriously, does anyone find it productive to make something up and then argue against it? I find it very tiresome and unlike those picks it is worthless.

What??? That is a dumb comparison. Its low odds but that is where any comparison here stops lolz. Are three pointers free agency and free throws trades in this scenario?

When you hit on a first rounder its like a 50 point half court shot... make them worth 50 and hells yes I'll shoot the **** out of em.

 

[KqWIN]

Ingles + Clarkson + our 2028 unprotected 1st would have had to be the deal to get Powell and Covington.

Is that what we should have done? Not been able to trade a 1st for the rest of the decade until 2030 for those two guys while losing Clarkson as well?

Not to mention adding long-term salary and adding a lot to our luxury tax payment. That argument wasn’t really well thought out.

If we're pretending that's the deal....I don't know what to tell you lol. That is so far removed from what was actually given up to acquire those two. You must think that POR REALLY loved Keon to think that is our equivalent of the deal.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Yeah, calling them raffle tickets is a vague expression, but that does not mean it's worthless. Are you throwing away a raffle ticket if there's 80% of a chance at winning one billion dollars? You're not. You're simply taking the least charitable interpretation of an expression because it is the easiest to argue against.

Wait so if its a raffle ticket for a fairy tale like raffle that give 80% chance at a billion then yeah I'll take it. But if it is like 99% of the raffles I've seen in the real world i will go ahead and toss that ticket that could turn into a basket of cheese or a beach towel and sunscreen... I'm good.

 

[NUMBERICA]

The team we had at the end of last year was misery incarnate. Saying nothing of all the more weighty strategic arguments in moving on, why in the **** would any of you want to continue to build around two players that had a toxic relationship and huge holes in their games?

It was time.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Yeah, calling them raffle tickets is a vague expression, but that does not mean it's worthless. Are you throwing away a raffle ticket if there's 80% of a chance at winning one billion dollars? You're not. You're simply taking the least charitable interpretation of an expression because it is the easiest to argue against.

And clearly @infection meant we traded a car for 4 raffle tickets with an 80% chance at a billion dollars... Jebus... and I'm the one making **** up.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Yeah, calling them raffle tickets is a vague expression, but that does not mean it's worthless. Are you throwing away a raffle ticket if there's 80% of a chance at winning one billion dollars? You're not. You're simply taking the least charitable interpretation of an expression because it is the easiest to argue against.

And clearly @infection meant we traded a car for 4 raffle tickets with an 80% chance at a billion dollars... Jebus... and I'm the one making **** up.

 

[Elizah Huge]

If we're pretending that's the deal....I don't know what to tell you lol. That is so far removed from what was actually given up to acquire those two. You must think that POR REALLY loved Keon to think that is our equivalent of the deal.

Yeah, you’re delusional as ****. I don’t think you read or maybe you just ignored what HH said about Portland liking Keon. He was a first round pick last year. We don’t have an asset like that besides a future pick.

I don’t know what to tell you lolz.

 

[KqWIN]

What??? That is a dumb comparison. Its low odds but that is where any comparison here stops lolz. Are three pointers free agency and free throws trades in this scenario?

When you hit on a first rounder its like a 50 point half court shot... make them worth 50 and hells yes I'll shoot the **** out of em.

The point is, because something unlikely happened does not mean you should count on it happening again. Would you play the lottery because you won the lottery before? The maximum gain is amazing, but that's not what matters does it? If you wanted to get rich, that's not how you would want to do it.

 

[KqWIN]

And clearly @infection meant we traded a car for 4 raffle tickets with an 80% chance at a billion dollars... Jebus... and I'm the one making **** up.

Do you really think @infection would be willing to throw those picks in the trash as if they meant nothing? Answer that honestly. When you make an uncharitable interpretation of an expression, it means nothing. What I said is as ridiculous as what you said, and that's the point. It's a waste of everyone's time to take that expression in a way that we all know it was not meant to be interpreted.

 

[Elizah Huge]

The point is, because something unlikely happened does not mean you should count on it happening again. Would you play the lottery because you won the lottery before? The maximum gain is amazing, but that's not what matters does it? If you wanted to get rich, that's not how you would want to do it.

It’s not the ****ing lottery. We got unprotected picks 3/5/7 years in the future from a franchise who’s made the playoffs two times since 2004.

How in the **** is any of this equal to playing the lottery.

 

[KqWIN]

It’s not the ****ing lottery. We got unprotected picks 3/5/7 years in the future from a franchise who’s made the playoffs two times since 2004.

How in the **** is any of this equal to playing the lottery.

HH literally just said it's worth it to keep shooting shots if the prize was more. It's not about how much the prize is worth, it's about the expected return on the risk.

And by the way, you can also read the part that says "the point is". It would help a lot. If something is unlikely, it's still unlikely even if it happened before. Do you disagree with that? That's the point.