But they are openly callings lies lies! Based on actual information!!!
That is sooooo biased against the MAGA-verse
The Biden Administration and All Things Politics
- Thread starter Avery
- Start date
That is sooooo biased against the MAGA-verse
Bucknutz
Well-Known Member
Yes, my point.
This is about government working with private business to control speech.
I completely fine with private platforms "deciding what to remove, label etc." The issue I have is the government having a part of that discussion. Why should the government be involved to "handle the process more efficiently and effectively" in a private business?
Let's take a look at a couple of the samples presented in the article. Im going to include Gameface and Fish in this conversation as well since they responded to my post.
Covid Origins
There are two hypothesizes
1. Wuhan wet market / Natural - https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/26/health/wuhan-market-covid-19/index.html
2. Wuhan Lab / Man Made - https://nypost.com/2022/10/29/new-report-supports-claim-covid-19-came-from-wuhan-lab/
Even today, still the two hypothesizes exist and both are plausible. They still do not have a definitive origin. The DNI explained this. I added the DNI.gov declassified assessment of Covid origins to this post.
Yet one of these Origins were considered conspiracy theories and misinformation:
Science | AAAS
www.science.org
WHO media briefing from Wuhan on COVID-19 mission - 9 February 2021
WHO media briefing from Wuhan on COVID-19 mission, 9 February 2021
Even in this forum posters who disagreed with the post shot down the Man Made theory:
One Brow -
Except, the virus is not manufactured and shows no signs of being manufactured.
Than again, you think Mercola is credible.
Gameface -
This "speculation" is not new. There were completely unfounded conspiracy theories just like this literally seconds after there was news of this outbreak.
Both of you shot down the man mad hypothesis even though you both can not, even today prove where the origin was. No one can. Both of you were on the governments and media's side on this subject.
What I don't like is the government promoting their "truth"(Natural) and shutting down conversation what they feel is "misinformation" (Man Made) and working with social media to do this.
Vaccine efficacy
I have posted on this topic before and included a video that shows the government, including the President, that claims you can not spreed Covid if you are vaccinated.
CDC Data Suggests Vaccinated Don’t Carry, Can’t Spread Virus
Some public-health experts have pushed back on the CDC director’s claim that “vaccinated people do not carry the virus” and “don’t get sick.”
nymag.com
View: https://youtu.be/nTlxpxdH3Yk
If someone claimed otherwise, this was misinformation. Except the governments "truth" was misinformation. Once again, I don't like how the government was working with social media to "throttle or suppress" through a special Facebook portal, on what they consider misinformation.
I like my governor, even though I don't like his overreaching law "Stop Woke Act". The judge in the case mentioned in my original posts link had a great line which I agree with:
“Florida’s legislators may well find plaintiffs’ speech ‘repugnant.’ But under our constitutional scheme, the ‘remedy’ for repugnant speech is more speech, not enforced silence,”
The governments job is not to silence speech. Keep the Government out of social media and our speech.
If Trump did this and silenced speech on Stormy, or taxes or anything else you all would be screaming from the roof how this goes against our 1st amendment rights. I just don't want to go down that path at all.
fishonjazz
Well-Known Member
Contributor
2018 Award Winner
2019 Award Winner
2020-21 Award Winner
2022 Award Winner
2023 Award Winner
2024 Award Winner
Yes, my point.
This is about government working with private business to control speech.
I completely fine with private platforms "deciding what to remove, label etc." The issue I have is the government having a part of that discussion. Why should the government be involved to "handle the process more efficiently and effectively" in a private business?
Let's take a look at a couple of the samples presented in the article. Im going to include Gameface and Fish in this conversation as well since they responded to my post.
Covid Origins
There are two hypothesizes
1. Wuhan wet market / Natural - https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/26/health/wuhan-market-covid-19/index.html
2. Wuhan Lab / Man Made - https://nypost.com/2022/10/29/new-report-supports-claim-covid-19-came-from-wuhan-lab/
Even today, still the two hypothesizes exist and both are plausible. They still do not have a definitive origin. The DNI explained this. I added the DNI.gov declassified assessment of Covid origins to this post.
Yet one of these Origins were considered conspiracy theories and misinformation:
Science | AAAS
WHO media briefing from Wuhan on COVID-19 mission - 9 February 2021
WHO media briefing from Wuhan on COVID-19 mission, 9 February 2021www.who.int
Even in this forum posters who disagreed with the post shot down the Man Made theory:
One Brow -
Except, the virus is not manufactured and shows no signs of being manufactured.
Than again, you think Mercola is credible.
Gameface -
This "speculation" is not new. There were completely unfounded conspiracy theories just like this literally seconds after there was news of this outbreak.
Both of you shot down the man mad hypothesis even though you both can not, even today prove where the origin was. No one can. Both of you were on the governments and media's side on this subject.
What I don't like is the government promoting their "truth"(Natural) and shutting down conversation what they feel is "misinformation" (Man Made) and working with social media to do this.
Vaccine efficacy
I have posted on this topic before and included a video that shows the government, including the President, that claims you can not spreed Covid if you are vaccinated.
CDC Data Suggests Vaccinated Don’t Carry, Can’t Spread Virus
Some public-health experts have pushed back on the CDC director’s claim that “vaccinated people do not carry the virus” and “don’t get sick.”
View: https://youtu.be/nTlxpxdH3Yk
If someone claimed otherwise, this was misinformation. Except the governments "truth" was misinformation. Once again, I don't like how the government was working with social media to "throttle or suppress" through a special Facebook portal, on what they consider misinformation.
I like my governor, even though I don't like his overreaching law "Stop Woke Act". The judge in the case mentioned in my original posts link had a great line which I agree with:
“Florida’s legislators may well find plaintiffs’ speech ‘repugnant.’ But under our constitutional scheme, the ‘remedy’ for repugnant speech is more speech, not enforced silence,”
The governments job is not to silence speech. Keep the Government out of social media and our speech.
If Trump did this and silenced speech on Stormy, or taxes or anything else you all would be screaming from the roof how this goes against our 1st amendment rights. I just don't want to go down that path at all.
But none of this speech was silenced. I heard a ton about the virus being man made. I heard that the virus was man made more frequently than i heard that it was from the wet market.
Same with the efficacy of the vaccine. If im hearing a ton about both of these things, even more than im hearing the governments version of things, then that would indicate that speech isnt being silenced.
Sent from my iPad using JazzFanz mobile app
fishonjazz
Well-Known Member
Contributor
2018 Award Winner
2019 Award Winner
2020-21 Award Winner
2022 Award Winner
2023 Award Winner
2024 Award Winner
In fact i would go as far as to say that the government is actually spreading the false information that bucknutz says they are silencing.
I have heard many members of congress spread the big lie thst the election was stolen. I have heard many members of congress say that the virus was made in a lab. I have heard many memebers of congress say that the paul pelosi attack was a gay lover scorned. I have heard many members of congress say that the vaccine doesnt work.
Its quite ironic that the speech bucknutz thinks is being silenced is actually louder than anything else.
Sent from my iPad using JazzFanz mobile app
I have heard many members of congress spread the big lie thst the election was stolen. I have heard many members of congress say that the virus was made in a lab. I have heard many memebers of congress say that the paul pelosi attack was a gay lover scorned. I have heard many members of congress say that the vaccine doesnt work.
Its quite ironic that the speech bucknutz thinks is being silenced is actually louder than anything else.
Sent from my iPad using JazzFanz mobile app
Al-O-Meter
Well-Known Member
The virus was made in a lab at least once. The problem with the anti-First Amendment types intent on stopping the spread false information is that many of them claim a thing is false when in truth they have no idea if it is true or not.
View: https://onezero.medium.com/swiss-scientists-have-recreated-the-coronavirus-in-a-lab-d12816bfdbe3
Bucknutz
Well-Known Member
Even though you heard about the man made more frequently, what was the narrative? When you heard about it, was it "Covid origin made in lab is a conspiracy theory" or was it more "Covid origin made in lab is a plausible origin"?
Im genuinely asking, when you consumed the information, did you think it was a conspiracy theory?
Im asking again, at the time, was it considered misinformation that if you got vaccinated you could still get covid. The answer was yes.
Is this not a way to control speech? Create a narrative saying, Wuhan Lab origin is a conspiracy theory to the masses. Then the people who consume that information, silences the others who push back and say there is another plausible origin? Even though you don't actually have the correct information?
There is a portal to Facebook and instagram through https://www.facebook.com/xtakedowns/login, where the government can request suppression and throttle. Here is the link from the article https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23129270-fb-portal.
If it was not happening, why would there be a link for requests?
Are you thinking this is a conspiracy theory as well?
I'm going to address this point separately from the rest of the post, and probably move that response into the coronavirus thread.
I appreciate that we are coming from different perspectives here. I think that you are seeing this as 'government asserting control'. What I see is 'private businesses asking for government assistance'. There are a couple of different lines of thought that lead me this way.
First, some negative evidence. The only platforms I saw mentioned in the article were Facebook/Instagram (same company) and Twitter. No mention of Vine, Vimeo, Tiktok, Gab, Gettr, Discord, Slack, or dozens of other companies. If this were something the government was imposing/influencing/etc. from above, many more platforms would have been involved.
Second, motivation. We need to be clear the customer base of Facebook/Instagram/Twitter (the advertisers) and the product (the user base and their generated content). Just a couple of days ago, GM pulled out of Twitter advertising after Musk took over and suggested that the doors would be more open to various types of posts (resulting in an influx of hatred from the 4chan types and similar sources). GM does not want to be associated with a cesspool of misinformation. Other mainstream advertisers will pull out if they get the same vibe. Facebook/Instagram/Twitter can't survive if their only advertising revenue are erection pills and gold bullion buyers and sellers. They need that mainstream revenue (see Musk's response to Stephen King yesterday(?). Combating mis/dis/malinformation is a bottom-line decision, one driven strictly by profit-seeking.
Third, reliability of sources. I appreciate no source if perfect and all of them need to be questioned, but at the end of the day, the most reliable source for information on infectious diseases will be the CDC, and the CDC seemingly has no political agenda. I hope that you support removing false information about locations to vote, and what better resource is there for voting locations than the governments who set them up?. There is considerably more suspicion in talking to the military about Ukraine, or the White House about politics, but that's still where the people who know the most reside, so we should at listen and evaluate when they say something is false.
Fourth, efficiency and effectiveness. The government wants to be more efficient and effective in communicating, because they are providing a service to online platforms. The government ims to be more efficient and effective at the VA, the IRS, the State department, immigrations courts, etc. This means less government waste and less wasted time. I don't see that as a bad thing.
This is absolutely not a conspiracy theory (at least, not as you've presented it), and it is a good thing that the Intercept decided to report about it, and you chose to bring the information into the forum. We should always be asking ourselves what the real motivations are, who has the agenda, who has the power, etc. There are many, many ways that the government interactions with Facebook and other online platforms are shady and scary, from the response to warrants to the ability to construct a full timeline of a person's life. Every cell phone is basically a government tracking device when it is on.
However, I think you happen to have confused the cart and the horse on this particular issue. It's Facebook, et. al., who want to monitor their platforms for financial reasons, and the government is offering them the means to do it more effectively. I see helping corporations operate more efficiently as being part of what a government should do.
Bucknutz
Well-Known Member
No problem, makes sense.
Just a bit off, I am seeing this as working with private entities. Working together. I do understand you thought process of government assistance, which makes sense that they have a primary point of contact (government) which is not media.
3 of the top 10 platforms in the social media industry. What's app is also owned by Meta, which you could put under Facebook. TikTok is Chinese owned, so you really can work the same with them. 3 of 5 the top platforms in social media, which have billions of users each. After the top 5 you are in the hundreds of millions of users. You could influence majority through meta only.
This is private business, which each company can do what they would like. Again the government should not be involved in private business. They can make their own business decisions. I made a decision to not be apart of truth social. I have no desire to read what's on there, so those advertisers will not reach me. If you think a Musk owned Twitter is a cesspool, don't use it. The advertisers who want to reach their users will stay and market their business.
Once again, I absolutely support getting correct information and removing false information. Fully onboard. But when the information is subjective, incomplete, false and they peddle it as truth, while calling any other source conspiracy theories or misinformation to control speech, narrative or sources, is where I have an issue, especially if it comes from the government. What is so harmful to say, in public, we don't know where it originated. We have two theories, it could be from a lab or its natural but we believe it started in Wuhan. Then we could have a debate and a conversation without people shouting down using "conspiracy theories" as the facts.
I don't see this as a bad thing either. But they should have an official government communicating platform, where they can place their information. Then, the private companies who decide to use the governments official statements as facts, can use that source to suppress, throttle, silence users. Its different when the private company gives the government a link to submit who they want to do it to. That is what I am against. Keep it separate and transparent.
Just to make sure I understand you, you are talking about a government listing of (to pick one topic) every single Facebook post that gets a polling place wrong, with information about the user, date and time, Facebook group, etc., listed publicly, so that any entity at all comb over this list and use this information in any way they see fit? If that's not what you picture, please clarify. If it is, I quite frankly find that a more terrifying prospect than a portal where the government reports such things discreetly. YMMV.
Bucknutz
Well-Known Member
No, Im saying the government should have an official place to put official government information out. Then the companies can use that information on their sites. Which the company can remove, edit, caution posts that have incorrect information that they choose. If a company decides to use some information provided, such as official government voting locations, and then not other information such as vaccinated can't spread covid, they have the choice. Not having meetings and portals discussing what the messaging to be. Im asking for separation when it comes to government and private entities.
fishonjazz
Well-Known Member
Contributor
2018 Award Winner
2019 Award Winner
2020-21 Award Winner
2022 Award Winner
2023 Award Winner
2024 Award Winner
The virus being man made seemed completely plausible when i heard about it.
Originally i thought the vaccine would protect me from getting covid. But very quickly i knew for a fact that it didnt. Not only was it plausible and not a conspiracy theory but it was the obvious truth.
Again, members of congress literally tout the information that you believe the government is silencing. So its 100% a conspiracy theory that the government is silencing this information.
Sent from my iPad using JazzFanz mobile app
How does that help the companies find posts with disinformation?
After they find them. Whose reading all these posts to find the misinformation? Does Facebook need to hire a specialist on the elections locations in Kansas in the year 2022 in order to avoid spreading misinformation? If that level of employment sustainable for them?
They have that choice under the current system. I don't see what gains you are envisioning.
That sounds like something out of a textbook. Reality is messy. Everything that happens in government is affected by private entities, and vice-versa.
Bucknutz
Well-Known Member
Agreed
I think most people were this way as well.
Not everyone is getting information from members of congress. I honestly don't believe many in congress. Once again, my problem is having government and business working together in facts, fiction, narrative and information, when the government doesn't have a stellar history of telling the truth.
fishonjazz
Well-Known Member
Contributor
2018 Award Winner
2019 Award Winner
2020-21 Award Winner
2022 Award Winner
2023 Award Winner
2024 Award Winner
What do you mean by the government doesnt have a stellar history of telling the truth? The government isnt a person. Its thousands of people. Can you name some group of thousands of people that does have a stellar history of telling the truth?
Sent from my iPad using JazzFanz mobile app
fishonjazz
Well-Known Member
Contributor
2018 Award Winner
2019 Award Winner
2020-21 Award Winner
2022 Award Winner
2023 Award Winner
2024 Award Winner
In todays society with the prevelance of the internet and cell phones no one has to worry about any information being silenced. Anyone can put anything they want on the internet and it will be seen and heard.
Musk posted disinformation to twitter and 300,000 people read it and hundreds of thousands re tweeted it in less than an hour.
Sent from my iPad using JazzFanz mobile app
Musk posted disinformation to twitter and 300,000 people read it and hundreds of thousands re tweeted it in less than an hour.
Sent from my iPad using JazzFanz mobile app
Bucknutz
Well-Known Member
Why should the government be involved with private business processes? What disinformation? What the government tells the companies is disinformation? Or actual disinformation? Very subjective. That is why I presented 2 topics that had subjective material.
Why should the government read all the posts? Why is the government involved at all with a private business policies and procedures.
Exactly, its the business that needs to improve. Its should not be the Government helping shape messages.
Okay, here's a scenario. Trump gets elected, he works with Musk, behind scenes, to limit negative information about him on twitter. So users can't read publications, retweet information, share videos unless they are in a positive form. You have no issues with that? Your fine with it because its "Government". Its Trumps "Government" truth. Everything else is fake and conspiracy theories? Then everyone on the right can shout you down for being a conspiracist trying to bring up other information.
Playing a dangerous game here with Government and Private companies working together on information.
Bucknutz
Well-Known Member
Exactly my point to One brow. You are having the government working with private companies to create messaging or limit messaging that they don't like.
Bucknutz
Well-Known Member
I can't help you here, if you can't figure out that the government doesn't tell you the truth. But I know you hate Trump, here are some lies from him. I bet you would love to have these lies presented as truth on Social platforms because they are working together regulating truth.
fishonjazz
Well-Known Member
Contributor
2018 Award Winner
2019 Award Winner
2020-21 Award Winner
2022 Award Winner
2023 Award Winner
2024 Award Winner
But im getting that information more than ever so it doesnt track.
Sent from my iPad using JazzFanz mobile app