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One Brow

Well-Known Member
The parents always got notified when the school reported molestation. Your straw man is moronic because it pretends no other laws protecting children exist.
I'm aware other laws exist, which does not change what *this* law. Still, since you've decided to move on from this law says to other laws, I'll accept your concession on this law.

Teachers are mandatory reporters. Teachers are required by law to report any suspected sexual abuse.
Agreed.

The law restricts instruction and class room discussion.
That rather limits the opportunity to discuss these matters.

When a teacher suspects that a student has been sexually abused, that teacher does not say "Billy please show the class where the bad man touched you".
I would hope not. I would much prefer they followed the recommended procedures (thanks to this law, after getting parental approval, of course).

Absolutely nothing in this law conveys any sort of secrecy or protection to molesters in the way you are claiming.
Not explicitly.

Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having read what you wrote. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
I laugh at your attempts at diminution.
 


Bucknutz

Well-Known Member
It prohibits the teachers from talking to the child without parental permission.

"adopt procedures for notifying a 68 student's parent if there is a change in the student's services 69 or monitoring related to the student's mental, emotional, or 70 physical health or well-being ".

It allows parents to opt out of any questionnaires, including those for molestation, and tells schools the procedures must include ways to work out issues with parents.

"The procedures must reinforce the fundamental right of 73 parents to make decisions regarding the upbringing and control 74 of their children by requiring school district personnel to 75 encourage a student to discuss issues relating to his or her 76 well-being with his or her parent"

Just imagine: 'Mom/Dad, the school said I need to talk to you about our special game".


What you linked was not a questionnaire, it was curriculum.


Any process that strengthens parental rights will strengthen the rights of bad parents and abusive parents.

However, if you don't see the problem by now, you just don't want to.


@One Brow you just quoted the bill line 68,69 and 70 and not one line stated that the teacher is prohibited from talking to the child “without parental permission”. It talks about creating a procedure to notify a parent. You still cannot point out in the bill where a teacher cannot talk to the student about molestation.

Next, the linked opt out is for any part of the curriculum including any questionnaires or surveys. Many schools do not have these types of questionnaires.

The largest and most comprehensive report on sexual abuse shows almost 10% of k-12 students are victims of sexual misconduct by school employees and 66% of those suffered physical sexual abuse.
https://www2.ed.gov/rschstat/research/pubs/misconductreview/report.pdf

This number is 100x’s greater than the physical abuse committed by Catholic Priests…sickening
https://www.edweek.org/leadership/sexual-abuse-by-educators-is-scrutinized/2004/03

In 2014 GAO reported a warning that public school employees were “grooming” students “with the intent to perpetrate future sexual abuse or misconduct”
https://www.gao.gov/assets/gao-14-42.pdf
At the time of the report only 15 states have policies to regulate “grooming behaviors”. So Florida is not alone in this fight of school employee sexual abuse and grooming.
Grooming “usually employed by a family member or someone else in the victim’s circle of trust, such as a coach, teacher or youth group or others who naturally have some interaction with the victim.”

https://www.rainn.org/news/grooming-know-warning-signs
"Trust development and keeping secrets: Abusers attempt to gain trust of a potential victim through gifts, attention, sharing “secrets” and other means to make them feel that they have a caring relationship and to train them to keep the relationship secret."

Just imagine “Little Billie/Barbara, lets just keep this special game we play to ourselves don’t tell your parents”

Also 60% of children who are sexually abused are abused by people the family trusts. 30% are abused by family members (parents and siblings).
So having this bill “adopt a procedure to inform parents” of their child’s well-being, doesn’t sound like an enabler bill when majority of abuses are from other people, including a very high percentage of school employees.

Maybe you don’t see the real problem…or you don’t want to.
 
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One Brow

Well-Known Member
@One Brow you just quoted the bill line 68,69 and 70 and not one line stated that the teacher is prohibited from talking to the child “without parental permission”. It talks about creating a procedure to notify a parent. You still cannot point out in the bill where a teacher cannot talk to the student about molestation.
I was hoping you'd actually read the bill yourself. There's a difference between "cannot" and "have not".

6. Before administering a student well-being questionnaire 115 or health screening form to a student in kindergarten through 116 grade 3, the school district must provide the questionnaire or 117 health screening form to the parent and obtain the permission of 118 the parent.

Incase the type is too small for your eyes, "must ... obtain the permission of the parent. "

Next, the linked opt out is for any part of the curriculum including any questionnaires or surveys. Many schools do not have these types of questionnaires.
Again, that's different from a procedure for suspected molestation, unless you saying opting out of curriculum also opts you out of teachers being able to conduct investigations.

The largest and most comprehensive report on sexual abuse shows almost 10% of k-12 students are victims of sexual misconduct by school employees and 66% of those suffered physical sexual abuse.
https://www2.ed.gov/rschstat/research/pubs/misconductreview/report.pdf

This number is 100x’s greater than the physical abuse committed by Catholic Priests…sickening
https://www.edweek.org/leadership/sexual-abuse-by-educators-is-scrutinized/2004/03
???

Gorey and Leslie (1997), in a review of prevalence studies where they controlled for response rates and operational definitions concluded that 15 percent of women and 7 percent of men were sexually abused as children.
Your saying every abused kid was abused by a school employee?

Were you referring to this question?
During your whole school life, how often, if at all, has anyone (this includes students, teachers, other school employees, or anyone else) done the following things to you when you did not want them to?
That had 10%, but:
Of students who experienced any kind of sexual misconduct in schools, 21 percent were targets of educators, while the remaining 79 percent were targets of other students.
So, that takes it down to 2%, which is still far too many, but at about the same rate as Catholics (considering Catholics are only 20% of the US population).
https://www.edweek.org/leadership/sexual-abuse-by-educators-is-scrutinized/2004/03
In 2014 GAO reported a warning that public school employees were “grooming” students “with the intent to perpetrate future sexual abuse or misconduct”
https://www.gao.gov/assets/gao-14-42.pdf
I don't think anyone questions that it happens at all.
https://www.gao.gov/assets/gao-14-42.pdf
At the time of the report only 15 states have policies to regulate “grooming behaviors”. So Florida is not alone in this fight of school employee sexual abuse and grooming.
Name one thing this Florida bill does to prevent educators grooming students. I'd really like to know. I'm sure you're not so dumb as to think grooming occurs in front of a class of 20-30 students. Further, this bill does not claim to address grooming/molestation/etc. in any fashion at all. That's red meat being thrown at you so you'll stop thinking about what the law says or means. The bill claims it's about parental rights.

Grooming “usually employed by a family member or someone else in the victim’s circle of trust, such as a coach, teacher or youth group or others who naturally have some interaction with the victim.”
Again, just a red herring when discussing this bill.

So having this bill “adopt a procedure to inform parents” of their child’s well-being, doesn’t sound like an enabler biller when majority of abuses are from other people, including a very high percentage of school employees.
Check again. The majority of abuse of young children comes from the family.

Among other places:
The younger the victim, the more likely it is that the abuser is a family member. Of those molesting a child under six, 50 percent were family members. Family members also accounted for 23 percent of those abusing children ages 12 to 17.

Maybe you don’t see the real problem…or you don’t want to.
I see it just fine.
 

Bucknutz

Well-Known Member
I was hoping you'd actually read the bill yourself. There's a difference between "cannot" and "have not".



Incase the type is too small for your eyes, "must ... obtain the permission of the parent. "


Again, that's different from a procedure for suspected molestation, unless you saying opting out of curriculum also opts you out of teachers being able to conduct investigations.


???


Your saying every abused kid was abused by a school employee?

Were you referring to this question?

That had 10%, but:

So, that takes it down to 2%, which is still far too many, but at about the same rate as Catholics (considering Catholics are only 20% of the US population).
https://www.edweek.org/leadership/sexual-abuse-by-educators-is-scrutinized/2004/03

I don't think anyone questions that it happens at all.
https://www.gao.gov/assets/gao-14-42.pdf

Name one thing this Florida bill does to prevent educators grooming students. I'd really like to know. I'm sure you're not so dumb as to think grooming occurs in front of a class of 20-30 students. Further, this bill does not claim to address grooming/molestation/etc. in any fashion at all. That's red meat being thrown at you so you'll stop thinking about what the law says or means. The bill claims it's about parental rights.


Again, just a red herring when discussing this bill.


Check again. The majority of abuse of young children comes from the family.

Among other places:



I see it just fine.
Once again, you have not or cannot shown me a line in the bill that prevents a teacher from talking to a student about molestation.
Then you find another line that says "obtain the permission of the parent" but it is referring to a questionnaire...not talking with a teacher.
You are wrong about this and have been since you started trying to frame this bill as an enabler bill.

"Again, that's different from a procedure for suspected molestation, unless you saying opting out of curriculum also opts you out of teachers being able to conduct investigations."
I was hoping you'd actually read the bill yourself. There's a difference between "cannot" and "have not".



Incase the type is too small for your eyes, "must ... obtain the permission of the parent. "


Again, that's different from a procedure for suspected molestation, unless you saying opting out of curriculum also opts you out of teachers being able to conduct investigations.


???


Your saying every abused kid was abused by a school employee?

Were you referring to this question?

That had 10%, but:

So, that takes it down to 2%, which is still far too many, but at about the same rate as Catholics (considering Catholics are only 20% of the US population).
https://www.edweek.org/leadership/sexual-abuse-by-educators-is-scrutinized/2004/03

I don't think anyone questions that it happens at all.
https://www.gao.gov/assets/gao-14-42.pdf

Name one thing this Florida bill does to prevent educators grooming students. I'd really like to know. I'm sure you're not so dumb as to think grooming occurs in front of a class of 20-30 students. Further, this bill does not claim to address grooming/molestation/etc. in any fashion at all. That's red meat being thrown at you so you'll stop thinking about what the law says or means. The bill claims it's about parental rights.


Again, just a red herring when discussing this bill.


Check again. The majority of abuse of young children comes from the family.

Among other places:
Once again you cannot, have not or will not find a line in the bill that prohibits a teacher to talk to the student about molestation. But you keep saying that it does. I have read the bill, that is why I am so confident that it does not prohibit a teacher from talking to a child about molestation. I think you should spend some time reading it.

You contradict yourself in a matter of a day…
“Further, this bill does not claim to address grooming/molestation/etc. in any fashion at all.”

But a day before:
“As I mentioned, the Florida bill (now law, IIRC) makes it easier for child molesters by encouraging secrecy.”
“It's a pro-sexual-predator bill, by trying to eliminate discussion of molestation, among other things.”
“nor have discussions with them, about sexual issues (including molestation) without parental permission.”
“It prohibits the teachers from talking to the child without parental permission.”


The only permission it asks for is a questionnaire opt out. But those questionnaires or surveys are not required to have questions about molestation. They could just be general health or mental wellness surveys. Also schools are not required to send out health surveys.


“Your saying every abused kid was abused by a school employee?”
I have never implied or stated this. Just a stupid response. I wish you were better than that. Put some effort in.

You stated most molesters of children are family members which is not true, why I added the stats in there. Your stat is for children under 6…this bill goes to 11. Why the stats I provide are for up to 12… also the median age for a first sexual abuse is 9.
“Keep in mind, over half the molesters of young children are family members, and this law is almost entirely about giving parent more control over what the schools can talk to young kids about. It's a child molester's dream bill.”
https://www.edweek.org/leadership/h...-gay-and-anti-woke-bills-actually-say/2022/03
“The best data available suggest that nearly 10 percent of American students are targets of unwanted sexual attention by public school employees—ranging from sexual comments to rape—at some point during their school-age years, Ms. Shakeshaft said.”

Maybe if we kept the conversation away from sexual topics, then maybe it would stop a grooming opportunity. The average age of a first time molestation is 9…right in the middle of the this bills age range. I don’t think it will stop grooming problem, at home or in schools.
 

One Brow

Well-Known Member
Once again, you have not or cannot shown me a line in the bill that prevents a teacher from talking to a student about molestation.
Then you find another line that says "obtain the permission of the parent" but it is referring to a questionnaire...not talking with a teacher.
Teachers are trained child counselors, psychologists, nor social workers, and won't be having any sort of discussion about molestation with a child with some sort of procedure or form to guide them.

You are wrong about this and have been since you started trying to frame this bill as an enabler bill.
I might be. I'm not a lawyer. I see we agree it doesn't do anything to stop grooming.

You contradict yourself in a matter of a day…
“Further, this bill does not claim to address grooming/molestation/etc. in any fashion at all.”

But a day before:
“As I mentioned, the Florida bill (now law, IIRC) makes it easier for child molesters by encouraging secrecy.”
“It's a pro-sexual-predator bill, by trying to eliminate discussion of molestation, among other things.”
“nor have discussions with them, about sexual issues (including molestation) without parental permission.”
“It prohibits the teachers from talking to the child without parental permission.”
Friendly advice: you should lay out a contradiction before claiming to have one.

There is nothing contradictory about "not ... address"ing something (not mentioning it in a formal manner) while making the activity easier. I even referred to this an a possibly unintended consequence in post #1828 in this thread. If it had been addressed, I wouldn't have used "unintended".

The only permission it asks for is a questionnaire opt out. But those questionnaires or surveys are not required to have questions about molestation.
If procedures/questionnaires/etc. are not required to discuss it with the child, they should be. Teachers talking to kids without proper guidance could interfere with investigating molestation.

“Your saying every abused kid was abused by a school employee?”
I have never implied or stated this.
It was the implication of the mathematics of 10% of kids being abused and "10% of k-12 students are victims of sexual misconduct by school employees ". 10% = 10%. Surely you're not so innumerate that you think otherwise.

Put some effort in.
I phrased it as a question because I wasn't sure if you were so innumerate, or just read your material incorrectly.

You stated most molesters of children are family members which is not true, why I added the stats in there. Your stat is for children under 6…this bill goes to 11.
This bill actually goes to 18, but the prohibitions on discussion go to age 9 (3rd grade).

https://www.edweek.org/leadership/h...-gay-and-anti-woke-bills-actually-say/2022/03
“The best data available suggest that nearly 10 percent of American students are targets of unwanted sexual attention by public school employees—ranging from sexual comments to rape—at some point during their school-age years, Ms. Shakeshaft said.”
I already linked you to information that the report Shakeshaft tried to quote said 10% of students experienced abuse, but only 21% of those, 2% overall, from an employee. Repeating discredited information doesn't help you.

Maybe if we kept the conversation away from sexual topics, then maybe it would stop a grooming opportunity.
Because?

The average age of a first time molestation is 9…right in the middle of the this bills age range. I don’t think it will stop grooming problem, at home or in schools.
Here we agree. At the very least, the bill does nothing to stop grooming.
 

Bucknutz

Well-Known Member
Teachers are trained child counselors, psychologists, nor social workers, and won't be having any sort of discussion about molestation with a child with some sort of procedure or form to guide them.
I never stated this, and Im not letting you try to weasel your way out of your misinformation, and claim that teachers can not talk to students about molestation because of this bill. You will not find it and I take this as you conceding this point.
I might be. I'm not a lawyer. I see we agree it doesn't do anything to stop grooming.

Agreed
It was the implication of the mathematics of 10% of kids being abused and "10% of k-12 students are victims of sexual misconduct by school employees ". 10% = 10%. Surely you're not so innumerate that you think otherwise.


I phrased it as a question because I wasn't sure if you were so innumerate, or just read your material incorrectly.
Let me break this sentence down:
10% of K-12 students... Lets say the school has a 1000 kids, 10% is 100. That means that 100 kids are victims of sexual misconduct by school employees. This does not count for all the other sexual abuse occurrences. Meaning 100 kids plus other occurrences might Total 300, which would put 1/3 of victims are from school employees. So no, I never said every abused kid was by a school employee.

This bill actually goes to 18, but the prohibitions on discussion go to age 9 (3rd grade).
Correct, which is the average age of a sexual abused child.

Maybe if you don't talk about sexual topics, it might stop it from leading into other topics that could groom a child. Tiger King groomed the kid that came to work on his resort. He even explained how he did it. Started with an inappropriate conversation and went from there. Like I said I do not think it will stop grooming but it might stop some occurrences from happening.
 
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One Brow

Well-Known Member
I never stated this,
I agree that I stated that teachers would not be having those conversation without procedures being in place, not you.

and Im not letting you try to weasel your way out of your misinformation,
No weaseling needed.

and claim that teachers can not talk to students about molestation because of this bill.
They should not talk to the students without a procedure in place, and are forbidden (in grades K-3) to talk to the students using a procedure, unless they have parental permission. So, in your world, how do these talks happen? We want to protect the kids, but we also don't want another McMartin incident or to put innocent people in prison as happen in Wenacthee. So, how do these talks happen without the guidance of an official procedure?

You will not find it and I take this as you conceding this point.
Conceding which point, precisely?

Let me break this sentence down:
10% of K-12 students... Lets say the school has a 1000 kids, 10% is 100. That means that 100 kids are victims of sexual misconduct by school employees.
Except, that's not what the survey says.

This was a real test of your critical thinking skills. I know you just read that 21% percent of students who were victims said the abuser was a school employee, and 79% said other students. If 10% were abused by employees, that means another 40% by other students. That half the population, before we even get to abuse that happens within families, in religious organizations, in after school activities, among neighbors, etc. You're up to 80%+ of the country being a victim of sexual misconduct. Is that really what you think?

You should have at least read the pertinent section of the report you linked. From your link to Shakeshaft's report:
Gorey and Leslie (1997), in a review of prevalence studies where they controlled for response rates and operational definitions concluded that 15 percent of women and 7 percent of men were sexually abused as children.
Since more males are born than females, that's about 10% of the population overall. That's all incidences of sexual abuse, not just by school employees, and not even just in schools. It's overall. Here's a link to their abstract. Still far to many, of course, but it's not particularly an issue in schools.

This is the list of questions Shakeshaft is using for her 10% claim about sexual harassment (not molestation, but harassment):
During your whole school life, how often, if at all, has anyone (this includes students, teachers, other school employees, or anyone else) done the following things to you when you did not want them to?
Made sexual comments, jokes, gestures, or looks.
Showed, gave or left you sexual pictures, photographs, illustrations, messages, or notes.
Wrote sexual messages/graffiti about you on bathroom walls, in locker rooms, etc.
Spread sexual rumors about you.
Said you were gay or a lesbian.
Spied on you as you dressed or showered at school. Flashed or “mooned” you.
Touched, grabbed, or pinched you in a sexual way.
Intentionally brushed up against you in a sexual way.
Pulled at your clothing in a sexual way.
Pulled off or down your clothing.
Blocked your way or cornered you in a sexual way.
Forced you to kiss him/her.
Forced you to do something sexual, other than kissing.

3 of those (at least) happened to me, and had nothing to do with educators, nor did I feel particularly harassed.

This does not count for all the other sexual abuse occurrences.
The 100 is the number of occurances, from all sources, according to Gorey and Leslie.

Meaning 100 kids plus other occurrences might Total 300, which would put 1/3 of victims are from school employees. So no, I never said every abused kid was by a school employee.
The math says that for you.

Correct, which is the average age of a sexual abused child.
These are the kids that need the most protection, not the most silence.

Maybe if you don't talk about sexual topics, it might stop it from leading into other topics that could groom a child. Tiger King groomed the kid that came to work on his resort. He even explained how he did it. Started with an inappropriate conversation and went from there. Like I said I do not think it will stop grooming but it might stop some occurrences from happening.
No doubt Tiger King mentioned the importance of privacy in the grooming process, but if not, it should have been obvious. You can't groom a kid in a classroom of 20 or 30 students.
 

fishonjazz

Well-Known Member
Contributor
2018 Award Winner
2019 Award Winner
2020-21 Award Winner
Most people are not happy and it’s getting worse…
Agreed. I think people rely on the government/politics for their happiness or lack thereof too much.
I was very very happy when trump was president and the republicans controlled congress. Im very very very happy currently while Biden is president and the democrats control congress.
I make smart decisions, eat healthy, work hard, spend lots of time with family, exercise and get adequate sleep. I dont rely on politicians to make me happy like many people in our country currently do.
 

LogGrad98

Well-Known Member
Contributor
2020-21 Award Winner
Agreed. I think people rely on the government/politics for their happiness or lack thereof too much.
I was very very happy when trump was president and the republicans controlled congress. Im very very very happy currently while Biden is president and the democrats control congress.
I make smart decisions, eat healthy, work hard, spend lots of time with family, exercise and get adequate sleep. I dont rely on politicians to make me happy like many people in our country currently do.
You're also fortunate to not need to rely on that. Not everyone is so fortunate.
 

fishonjazz

Well-Known Member
Contributor
2018 Award Winner
2019 Award Winner
2020-21 Award Winner
You're also fortunate to not need to rely on that. Not everyone is so fortunate.
True. However even for many of those people if they made better decisions, ate healthier, exercised more, paid less attention to negative things like politics, and slept better then most of those people would be happier as well. Most people dont exercise, eat like crap, dont get enough sleep, make bad financial decisions, and focus on every single negative thing in the world. Then blame their lack of happiness on something they have no control over. I get that there are exceptions though, just saying that most people have the ability to improve their lives and be happier and choose not to.
 


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