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John Dehlin on Radio West.

Interesting because that is not at all what I concluded. I read that and concluded that he was removing himself from the church long before the church acted to remove him. Maybe it is because I have seen it happen a few times, particularly where I grew up. Back then a guy started questioning the church, then started discussion groups, then started his own church. Over time a few, not many, but a few members went with him. And each time they chose to end their association with the church before the church took action to excuminicate. Excomunicate means to put out of the community, but in every instance I have seen for apostasy the person removes themselves from the community first. They would stop coming to church, or refuse visits from the ward or bishop who were still trying.

I have no doubt he had some awkward moments with some ward members, but so does everyone else who attends church for any length of time.

And to me, the wording indicates something different, because I've seen people ask not to be bothered by the local yokals. Often because they're backstabbing, gossipus, judgemental slime. YMMV, and life experiences can paint entirely different portraits.

A letter or email asking not to be contacted, addressed to the bishop is far different than a letter or email to church confidential records office(i.e; msr-confrec@ldschurch.org), which given his history I'm 100% sure he knew existed.
 
But what if archeological evidence ends up proving that the Nephites were here? I'm not talking about conspiracy garbage, but honest to goodness evidence. I've spent the last year researching the topic and am studying it at Dixie State. It's only a matter of time before it becomes more than just a story that Joseph Smith made up.




*edit* This was supposed to be a reply to ElRoach's first post and his assertion that the people of the BoM were never here.
 
I have a very hard time with this whole thing. I find it very disturbing that I belong to a church that does not allow room for questioning practices and beliefs among it's members. I identify greatly with the article that Kicky posted about why John Dehlin stayed for so long, and I understand that the church has fundamental flaws, as do all humans.

My problem though, is that there is so much of what I perceive as pride going on in some of the leadership of the church right now. If the church is true, then why not let that stand for itself. If it is true, then they ought not to be excommunicating people from it. There are endless talks about inclusion, and tolerance, and being christlike, and all that stuff. But when it comes down to it, many of the church leaders act vindictively and out of what seems to be contempt for anyone who differs at all from being an orthodox mormon.

One of the things that I struggle with immensely is that there are members that are asking questions, and being told to follow with blind faith, yet that is in direct contradiction to what the church indoctrinates primary children with. Primary teaches all those kids to ask god if things are true, or good, or if they should do them, before they follow with blind faith. No where in the LDS scripture does it tell any one of God's children not to study and learn things for themselves, or to pray about answers that they need to find in their lives. Yet the church is casting out members for doing this very thing. Why is it not ok for members to talk about how Joseph Smith made up a language and fabricated the Book of Abraham? Why is it not ok for us to ask the brethren to pray to God and ask if women should hold the priesthood? If we have countless examples of members asking questions, and prophets receiving revelation about them in the past, why can it not happen today?
 
One of the things that I struggle with immensely is that there are members that are asking questions, and being told to follow with blind faith, yet that is in direct contradiction to what the church indoctrinates primary children with. Primary teaches all those kids to ask god if things are true, or good, or if they should do them, before they follow with blind faith. No where in the LDS scripture does it tell any one of God's children not to study and learn things for themselves, or to pray about answers that they need to find in their lives. Yet the church is casting out members for doing this very thing. Why is it not ok for members to talk about how Joseph Smith made up a language and fabricated the Book of Abraham? Why is it not ok for us to ask the brethren to pray to God and ask if women should hold the priesthood? If we have countless examples of members asking questions, and prophets receiving revelation about them in the past, why can it not happen today?

I'm not Mormon but I can't tell if this is TIC or not?

He wasn't asking them to pray and get back to him, he would not except their answers and was going out of his way to get members to question their faith. If you belong to a religion and do not believe in said religion find another god damn religion. Membership is totally voluntary.
 
I'm not Mormon but I can't tell if this is TIC or not?

He wasn't asking them to pray and get back to him, he would not except their answers and was going out of his way to get members to question their faith. If you belong to a religion and do not believe in said religion find another god damn religion. Membership is totally voluntary.

TIC?
 
From the overall impression I gather the guy was questioning parts of the Mormon faith and trying to persuade others that the Church is wrong which by default attacks their message of divinely inspired. The guy has every right to do so. But the Church has a right to revoke his membership as a result.

I fail to see the problem.

There are fundamental issues organized religions generally cannot resolve. An organized religion generally has to define core beliefs and world views. Then,generally, has to change them or shift emphasis.

The LDS Church has an elaborate formal protocol for making changes. There are inherent questions in all with respect tithe nature of " truth""

The LDS Church is at its core incoherent with "nature, nature's God, scriptural assertions of a sovereign unchanging Diety, of an unchanging God who adheres to law either coherent with the universe or established by said Diety. . . .

I expect that the LDS Church will have some new policies soon, with claims as to the prayerful concerns of the Leaders in regard for the sufferings of faithful women and LGBT members.

Like Dehlin, I will wonder if that decision is Right". Dehlin thinks they are just wrong now, and expects progress which will vindicate his stand. I will know that decision is without "truth" or "virtue" and is incoherent with universal and eternal principles.

Moses laid out a law that was supposed to be "Forever" as a covenantal relationship with God. Jesus condemned the leaders of his day who had substituted their own rules in the place of the old. Joseph Smith claimed to be restoring the faith of old.

These three are alike in the fundamental assertion of truth and virtue of an unchanging and eternal God, which the modern LDS Church has rejected in favor of their privilege to supplant that God with their internal policies and power.

A lot of people want their organized religion to shapeshift the doctrines to keep up with their changing views. I myself want the privilege to improve my notions of things.

Colton and other bright lights inside the LDS current faith will cast a favorable light on changes the Church undertakes, much like Catholics repose faith in the Pope and Cardinals.

I am going to expect God to be what He is.

Abraham pleaded for God to spare the cities of the plain, reputed to be doing wrong, but ultimately recognized the sovereignty of God. There is an example of compassion, love, and tolerance for others that does not supplant truth.

You guys can all debate what truth is pretty good. I just don't think I can win the case with my ideas.

I think genetics or behaviors have a known trend towards ending those characteristics which are dysfunctional or noncompetitive with respect to propagation .within a few generations, human history has many examples of displacements or demises of less functional groups.

I like women and kids, there is plenty I can do for them. Functional stuff with long-term results. I'd encourage any man to give it a shot. Abraham hoped as much for the people in those cities. I think God just knew it wouldn't turn out, and weighed the consequences somehow.

I don't think a Church can belong to God that fundamentally displaces "God" from the sovereign place in the faith. So the choice we all face is who we will allow to determine our beliefs. I just think it's got to be a personal choice.

My personal choice idealizes the hope and purpose I think God set out as the first commandment. Doesn't mean kids with self-image issues haft a be pressure-cooked in their formative years. We need someone who can pop the lid on those pressures.
 
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But what if archeological evidence ends up proving that the Nephites were here? I'm not talking about conspiracy garbage, but honest to goodness evidence. I've spent the last year researching the topic and am studying it at Dixie State. It's only a matter of time before it becomes more than just a story that Joseph Smith made up.



*edit* This was supposed to be a reply to ElRoach's first post and his assertion that the people of the BoM were never here.

Never said there weren't, never said it couldn't. I only implied that in the absence of evidence, you just have to stick with reality. I'd love for someone to prove it. I'm a Skeptic with a sense of humor, not a Cynic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeology_and_the_Book_of_Mormon

There's kind of a lot of stacking evidence that will need to be overturned. Geography, Geology, Metallurgy, Animal Husbandry... but still. It very well could be that "this was the place". Just bring me the evidence and I'll get on that train.
 
But what if archeological evidence ends up proving that the Nephites were here? I'm not talking about conspiracy garbage, but honest to goodness evidence. I've spent the last year researching the topic and am studying it at Dixie State. It's only a matter of time before it becomes more than just a story that Joseph Smith made up.




*edit* This was supposed to be a reply to ElRoach's first post and his assertion that the people of the BoM were never here.

The FIRM foundation did a DVD set on this. One of my brothers has long maintained disbelief in the Book of Mormon.

I have not been able to either confirm or deny at a level of confidence I am comfortable with. The more compelling facts are the lives and statements of those most directly involved in its production. Look at all Joseph Smith endured, and how his last moments were spent talking about and reading passages from the Book.
 
Never said there weren't, never said it couldn't. I only implied that in the absence of evidence, you just have to stick with reality. I'd love for someone to prove it. I'm a Skeptic with a sense of humor, not a Cynic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeology_and_the_Book_of_Mormon

There's kind of a lot of stacking evidence that will need to be overturned. Geography, Geology, Metallurgy, Animal Husbandry... but still. It very well could be that "this was the place". Just bring me the evidence and I'll get on that train.

I would actually prefer religios belief sets to be unprovable.

I prefer a society that doesn't have beliefs that can't be questioned or differed with. I think our essential humanity requires tolerance of different beliefs. . .. . Our rightto choose, believe, speak and forge our own oath in life depend on it.
 
I'm not Mormon but I can't tell if this is TIC or not?

He wasn't asking them to pray and get back to him, he would not except their answers and was going out of his way to get members to question their faith. If you belong to a religion and do not believe in said religion find another god damn religion. Membership is totally voluntary.
Sorry, I should have been more clear. The Ordain Women group was asking the church leaders to pray about certain things pertaining to women holding the priesthood in the LDS church. That is what I was getting at. John Dehlin supported that group, and Kate Kelly led the group, they were both excommunicated.

Also, it is not that cut and dry with how you believe vs how other members of the church believe. I know members of the LDS church take their religion very personally, and as such it is hard to leave if you disagree with how it is run. The LDS church has had a lot of periods of great change, and these folks who see things differently are not much different than members in the 1970's who supported black people getting the preisthood, or members who disagreed with Joseph Smith's financial decisions regarding the church, or polygamy for that matter. In my mind, the church usually comes around to these liberal views after excommunicating a few members. I just wish they would do it without excommunicating these people.
 
I don't like the idea of excommunication in general, but in this case where Dehlin clearly wanted it, I have a hard time getting worked up about it.
 
I for one am astonished that he took a more critical view of the church after they announced their intention to excommunicate him. It's almost like he's human.
Did he change because they started excommunication proceedings, or did they start excommunication proceedings because he changed? I didn't follow him closely enough to judge. Did you?
 
Wait...Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Abraham and the church admitted it was false? I had never heard that before.
 
Wait...Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Abraham and the church admitted it was false? I had never heard that before.

No they didn't admit it was false. Or clarify it or anything. That's the problem. Whether or not its false, it should be clarified because its a weird situation.
 
No they didn't admit it was false. Or clarify it or anything. That's the problem. Whether or not its false, it should be clarified because its a weird situation.

So from what I'm reading, people who can actually read Egyptian looked at the papyrus and learned that it wasn't the book of Abraham, but funeral arrangements? Or am I off?
 
So from what I'm reading, people who can actually read Egyptian looked at the papyrus and learned that it wasn't the book of Abraham, but funeral arrangements? Or am I off?
that's about right, at least the rumors that people talk about are pretty close. I don't know what the truth is though, but I am sure the church could clarify a lot of it by just addressing it.
 
I heard the interview with him this morning. He doesn't believe the BoM is historical, he has serious doubts about Jesus, he disagrees with most of the LDS doctrines. Yet, he insists he's still a Mormon because, um, it's his culture or something. I just don't understand religion. I really don't.
 
I heard the interview with him this morning. He doesn't believe the BoM is historical, he has serious doubts about Jesus, he disagrees with most of the LDS doctrines. Yet, he insists he's still a Mormon because, um, it's his culture or something. I just don't understand religion. I really don't.
Dogma, ritual, community. All three are key elements of mormonism and many other religions. This dude seems to mostly be hung up on the dogma, but buys into the community and at least some of the ritual.
 
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