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*BREAKING* Manafort Found Guilty on Eight Counts as Cohen Pleads Guilty to Eight Counts

I knew collusion with Russia was a nonsensical conspiracy theory all along. Never made sense to me that Russian intelligence would decide to involve a foreign and unpredictable reality TV personality in their business.

Shady business dealings make a lot more sense.
 
DutchJazzer said:
this investigation is out of it's scope. wanst the reason for the investigation to investigate Russian collusion.

what does thi shave to do with collusion/..

meanwhile criminal enterprise clinton is still walking around free
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This is so incorrect on multiple levels. Let's go to school:

The initial mandate from the Department of Justice to Robert Mueller was a scope of investigation that includes: 1) Russian interference in the US 2016 Election, 2) The involvement of any US Persons (read: collusion, or in legal terms, conspiracy to defraud the United States), 3) Any criminal deeds that were discovered in the course of that investigation.

This is a highly common way of framing scope for prosecutors because it is highly common for prosecutors to discover additional crimes in the context of their investigations and it would be against the rule of law to not prosecute a discovered crime simply because it wasn't predicted in an initial documentation of an investigation's scope. (e.g. a man murders his wife and in the course of the investigation prosecutors find that he also murdered several other women - they're going to prosecute those other murders as well, not ignore them because their original case was only focused on the wife.)

Furthermore, this is the roadmap for how prosecutors unravel criminal organizations - e.g. the mafia. Because our criminal justice system places enormous weight on corroborated evidence, prosecutors who are piecing together criminal conspiracy in organizations always, always start with lower level crimes to create pressure on those involved to become state's witnesses. It happened with Flynn, Gates, and Papadopoulos, it's happening with McGahn and Cohen, and Roger Stone is likely next - assuming he isn't a principal end target of the investigation, which I suspect he might be, along with Trump, Kushner, and Jr.

Stormy seas are coming - and if all you have to fall back on is "well this isn't the scope" - a claim that is inaccurate and bemoans a belief that a particular individual is greater than our system of laws and institutions, well... buckle up, because you're in for one hell of a bumpy ride, Dutch.
 
Siro said:
I knew collusion with Russia was a nonsensical conspiracy theory all along. Never made sense to me that Russian intelligence would decide to involve a foreign and unpredictable reality TV personality in their business.

Shady business dealings make a lot more sense.
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I mean, it can be both.
 
DutchJazzer said:
let us put a investigation team on you for 1 2 years. they will find irregularities!

you think it's an honest system?

fbi could find me guilty on purgery and probably tax irregularities if they look into me.

and all my lawyer would advise me to do is plead guilty!

fact is they where investigating russian collusion. well where is that?
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Money laundering, tax fraud, and illegal election contributions are not irregularities. They are criminal felonies.

And before you start with the whataboutism again, know that Democratic presidential candidate John Edwards was indicted for the latter and many other politicians have been indicted for the former - including former Illinois governor (a Democrat) Rod Blagojevich who was in a jail cell until Trump pardoned him - likely as a signal to Manafort to hold tough.
 
Siro said:
Nah. Russia collusion is nonsense. An irrational hypothesis with zero evidence. Might as well be birthers.
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I'm not sure if you're joking right now or not. We have had evidence since Don Jr's email about the Trump tower meeting came out.

In more recent developments there is this from Cohen's lawyer last night:

Cohen, Davis said, “is more than happy to tell the special counsel all that he knows, not just about the obvious possibility of a conspiracy to collude and corrupt the American Democracy system in the 2016 election ... but also knowledge about the computer crime of hacking and whether or not Mr. Trump knew ahead of time about that crime and even cheered it on."

We're far from birther territory here.
 
Zombie said:
I'm not sure if you're joking right now or not. We have had evidence since Don Jr's email about the Trump tower meeting came out.
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Ya, trying to get dirt on Hillary. That's not collusion with Russia to undermine the election. I don't know what seeking Trump's input on facebook ads could possibly accomplish. There is no reason to collude with an idiot with no political experience or influence, that nobody thought would win when Russia was meddling with our ****.
 
Siro said:
Ya, trying to get dirt on Hillary. That's not collusion with Russia to undermine the election. I don't know what seeking Trump's input on facebook ads could possibly accomplish. There is no reason to collude with an idiot with no political experience or influence, that nobody thought would win when Russia was meddling with our ****.
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Getting help from a foreign adversary in a presidential campaign in any way shape or form is 'collusion'. I think you are fundamentally misunderstanding what the accusations are here.

Russia's goal in the election was to damage Hillary Clinton (they figured just like everyone else she'd end up president) to weaken her presidency, and secondly to sow doubt and confusion among the electorate. That they ended up getting him elected was just icing.
 
Zombie said:
Getting help from a foreign adversary in a presidential campaign in any way shape or form is 'collusion'. I think you are fundamentally misunderstanding what the accusations are here.
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That's very possible. I don't closely follow the situation.
 
Siro said:
Ya, trying to get dirt on Hillary. That's not collusion with Russia to undermine the election. I don't know what seeking Trump's input on facebook ads could possibly accomplish. There is no reason to collude with an idiot with no political experience or influence, that nobody thought would win when Russia was meddling with our ****.
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There are several potential crimes that have yet to be unveiled by prosecutors. Keep in mind that few US Persons have been indicted yet regarding the overarching Russian influence of the election - those that have were on charges of lying to the FBI about their involvement. This does not mean that these crimes do not exist, only that prosecutors have not yet pushed through indictments.

Crimes that we may see:
1. Soliciting donations (financial or otherwise) from a foreign power. Felony.
2. Conspiracy to defraud the United States of America. Felony.
3. Indicted co-conspirators for computer crimes against a persons or organization. Felony.

It seems like your read is that because these crimes have not been announced they weren't committed. You might be correct. It also might be that these crimes simply have not been announced yet, as prosecutors assemble more corroborating evidence. In my mind, the latter is more likely, and Cohen's plea accelerates the velocity of when we'll know.
 
Yeah, I don't think Trump sat down with Russian agents and they went over their plan to steal the Presidential election. I think him knowing about the Trump Tower meeting would be a type of collusion. But I think what Trump is almost certainly guilty of is obstruction. Like several counts of obstruction. I think his greatest fear is and has always been that his shady *** financial dealings in Russia would be uncovered during the course of this investigation and he has been desperate to shut it down.

I think some Trump supporters are failing to understand the point Flc made earlier that this is not just about Trump cooperating with Russian attempts to interfere in our election but to investigate that Russian interference itself. Question 1: How and why did Russia interfere in our Presidential election? Question 2: Did Donald Trump's campaign aid Russia in their interference?
 
Decided to tune in to Fox News and the first program had Karl Rove on and they deflected and downplayed the news against the President, but lo-and-behold the current show, Shepard Smith is SLAMMING Trump. Good to see Fox actually allows a guy like Shepard.
 
tax irreuglaritiest can be found anywhere, if you look long enugh at anyones books.. if those tax irregularities are a mistake(hard to imagine a mistake by a lawyer). wouldnt aloan aplication with a bank contain those same tax filings? which makes it fraud.

hmm so it is ok to stick a rabid dog on people searhcing for tax irregularities. they did it to capone, some people said it is teh scariest thing ever they can do it to anyone now
 
str8line said:
Decided to tune in to Fox News and the first program had Karl Rove on and they deflected and downplayed the news against the President, but lo-and-behold the current show, Shepard Smith is SLAMMING Trump. Good to see Fox actually allows a guy like Shepard.
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The saddest part is that when FOX News airs segments critical of the President, Trump supporters don't question their support of the narrative Trump is pushing, they leave Fox News, declare it's just another MSM fake news outlet and they go to even less credible and more extreme sources for their news.
 
Bulletproof said:
The saddest part is that when FOX News airs segments critical of the President, Trump supporters don't question their support of the narrative Trump is pushing, they leave Fox News, declare it's just another MSM fake news outlet and they go to even less credible and more extreme sources for their news.
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Doubling down on dumb.
 
Whew! I was honestly worried guys. I thought maybe Trump did something wrong.

But our man, the President of the United States, he cleared it all up.

The payments to the women he was having an affair with, in some cases while his wife was at home nursing their child, didn't come from his campaign, they came directly from him. So it's all good. Nothing to see here folks. Just a great man making America Great AGAIN!
 
str8line said:
Decided to tune in to Fox News and the first program had Karl Rove on and they deflected and downplayed the news against the President, but lo-and-behold the current show, Shepard Smith is SLAMMING Trump. Good to see Fox actually allows a guy like Shepard.
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It continues to surprise me that they allow Shepard's show.
 
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