2024-2025 Tank Race

[idiot]

I agree and its kind of right... sorta. The other ways are to draft an MVP where Giannis and Jokic were drafted... which we are also able to do as we have additional picks.

I should probably amend my original statement a bit. It's not that I don't think that tanking can be at least part of a way toward a championship. It's more the overconfidence in the likelihood of reaching a championship because of tanking that I find frustrating.

 

[idiot]

I just don't know if you can say being a perennial playoff team for a decade or making the finals or conference finals is an unsuccessful rebuild/tank or whatevs. I think however you do it you build a top 5 team and hope for some luck.

I happen to agree with you in theory. It's just that many of the pro-tankers apply a championship-or-failure standard to non-tanking "strategies," in trying to argue for the need to tank.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I should probably amend my original statement a bit. It's not that I don't think that tanking can be at least part of a way toward a championship. It's more the overconfidence in the likelihood of reaching a championship because of tanking that I find frustrating.

I agree and hardcore tankers also will be like... "tank this year and get Cooper... then we tank next year and get AJ... then its championships!!! **** so easy". When its more likely you tank and end up with like VJ Edgecomb and Nate Ament and one of those guys may not be good. Just like so much of life... the answers are kinda in the middle and grayish.

My issues are generally with the folks that are on the far end of the spectrum "tanking has never worked" and "tanking is foolproof". For me I just want GM consistency in what direction you are heading and with the approach. Where we muffed up a bit is not moving hard enough in the post Don/Rudy trades. What concerns me is potentially oscillating back and forth and just toiling away in the middle/lower end of the NBA world.

 

[KqWIN]

I agree and its kind of right... sorta. The other ways are to draft an MVP where Giannis and Jokic were drafted... which we are also able to do as we have additional picks.

I just don't know if you can say being a perennial playoff team for a decade or making the finals or conference finals is an unsuccessful rebuild/tank or whatevs. I think however you do it you build a top 5 team and hope for some luck. We did that but in the process forgot to fill the pipeline or failed to do it... and cashed in some of the assets needed in the future... while also refusing to move around the deck chairs. Wouldn't swap out any good pieces to see if the mix could be improved. Quin was too rigid and I think was partly the driver of that and DL was too passive. It put us in a spot where it was going to be mortgage the future and try with a couple guys that don't like each other... I would have pressed the rebuild button and we got a good return for doing it maybe a little prematurely.

Tbh, I think this kind of demonstrates my frustration with much of the tanking crowd. You listed all the ways the Jazz could have improved, but they did not even try. I remember those discussions, and so many were adamant against doing anything besides tanking. Those who were the most against doing anything that could improve the roster were the ones who wanted to tank the most. People can only see tanking as a path to get better. I find the tanking discussion extremely annoying because it's often a closed door. It's easy to say, "we'll rebuild and get draft picks and draft great players" without acknowledging the extreme difficulty/luck required in that happening. OTOH, we know the difficulty of building from the margins. Yeah it's hard to hit a home run on a late draft pick, trade, or FA move with more limited options....that doesn't necessarily mean that it's the worse option.

What it really boils down to is this idea that tanking is the only way and that it's necessary. Also, I cannot stand is when pro-tank people where it as a badge of honor that says they are the one's willing to sacrifice and do what's necessary. This adds to this false dichotomy that tanking is the only way. But those same fans who are willing to "sacrifice" the current state likely enjoy the comfort of having no expectations to win and are also unwilling to "sacrifice" any threat of the future to win now. I can't blame anyone for the way they feel about things, if it feels better to suck now with a promise of hope later instead of trying to win more now with a promise of sucking later....so be it. But don't act like it's the only path and any considerations of other routes is because that person just isn't willing to deal with the losing.

And I'm sure there is some annoying stuff coming the other way as well....but just for me personally, I find it always to be frustrating/circular conversation and it's not because people argue that tanking can't work or hasn't ever worked. It's because people argue that only tanking can work.

 

[Tremendous Upside]

Where we muffed up a bit is not moving hard enough in the post Don/Rudy trades.

I'll never understand this line of thought. What were they supposed to do?

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

The Jazz currently do not have a #1 option on offense. To be honest, they don't really have a #2 option either. They're hoping to acquire those guys at or near the top of the next two drafts, since these are relatively strong draft classes. (Hence, they are "tanking" to acquire those picks.) Guys like Flagg, Harper, Kasparas, Tre Johnson, maybe Jeremiah Fears, AJ Dybantsa, Cam Boozer, Darryn Peterson, etc. need to come in and play those main roles. Another possibility is to draft the #1 guy and try to swing a trade for the #2 guy, but that also takes some luck and happenstance, while Utah has not been a top-tier trade destination for star players.

If the Jazz (as currently constituted) want to make deep playoff runs, then Lauri essentially becomes the Jazz's #3 option, Walker becomes the 4th option, and they can then play Collins, Keyonte or possibly Brice as their 5th starter, with the other two of those three players coming off the bench. The Jazz have been running their offense through Sexton and Clarkson as a stopgap in the meantime.

 

[NAOS_pt2]

Lauri is a legit #2 option. No doubt in my mind.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

The Jazz currently do not have a #1 option on offense. To be honest, they don't really have a #2 option either. They're hoping to acquire those guys at or near the top of the next two drafts, since these are relatively strong draft classes. (Hence, they are "tanking" to acquire those picks.) Guys like Flagg, Harper, Kasparas, Tre Johnson, maybe Jeremiah Fears, AJ Dybantsa, Cam Boozer, Darryn Peterson, etc. need to come in and play those main roles. Another possibility is to draft the #1 guy and try to swing a trade for the #2 guy, but that also takes some luck and happenstance, while Utah has not been a top-tier trade destination for star players.

If the Jazz (as currently constituted) want to make deep playoff runs, then Lauri essentially becomes the Jazz's #3 option, Walker becomes the 4th option, and they can then play Collins, Keyonte or possibly Brice as their 5th starter, with the other two of those three players coming off the bench. The Jazz have been running their offense through Sexton and Clarkson as a stopgap in the meantime.

Lauri is absolutely a #2 option...

 

[fishonjazz]

I should probably amend my original statement a bit. It's not that I don't think that tanking can be at least part of a way toward a championship. It's more the overconfidence in the likelihood of reaching a championship because of tanking that I find frustrating.

In that case I think you are seeing what you want to see.
I dont think there is any likelihood of the jazz reaching a championship no matter what we do.
I have yet to see anyone make any claim that tanking has a high chance of bringing the jazz a championship.

 

[fishonjazz]

I agree and hardcore tankers also will be like... "tank this year and get Cooper... then we tank next year and get AJ... then its championships!!! **** so easy". .

"tanking is foolproof".

I dont think this person exists.

 

[fishonjazz]

Tbh, I think this kind of demonstrates my frustration with much of the tanking crowd. You listed all the ways the Jazz could have improved, but they did not even try. I remember those discussions, and so many were adamant against doing anything besides tanking. Those who were the most against doing anything that could improve the roster were the ones who wanted to tank the most. People can only see tanking as a path to get better. I find the tanking discussion extremely annoying because it's often a closed door. It's easy to say, "we'll rebuild and get draft picks and draft great players" without acknowledging the extreme difficulty/luck required in that happening. OTOH, we know the difficulty of building from the margins. Yeah it's hard to hit a home run on a late draft pick, trade, or FA move with more limited options....that doesn't necessarily mean that it's the worse option.

What it really boils down to is this idea that tanking is the only way and that it's necessary. Also, I cannot stand is when pro-tank people where it as a badge of honor that says they are the one's willing to sacrifice and do what's necessary. This adds to this false dichotomy that tanking is the only way. But those same fans who are willing to "sacrifice" the current state likely enjoy the comfort of having no expectations to win and are also unwilling to "sacrifice" any threat of the future to win now. I can't blame anyone for the way they feel about things, if it feels better to suck now with a promise of hope later instead of trying to win more now with a promise of sucking later....so be it. But don't act like it's the only path and any considerations of other routes is because that person just isn't willing to deal with the losing.

And I'm sure there is some annoying stuff coming the other way as well....but just for me personally, I find it always to be frustrating/circular conversation and it's not because people argue that tanking can't work or hasn't ever worked. It's because people argue that only tanking can work.

I always preferred a path where we try to trade for a Luka or a Giannis. Tanking sucks. Hard to trade for a Luka or Giannis though. Much easier to draft them if you are the jazz.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

And I'll just say, the whole "option" talk is kind of muddied.

Yes, the Jazz definitely need a primary creator, but with Lauri, you dont have to have a strict 2/3 guy option. Lauri is your primary off-ball option and you need a secondary creator to help the #1 creator. Hell, even if you get a #1 option, Lauri still might be your leading scorer if that #1 option is a skilled playmaker.

 

[homeytennis]

And I'll just say, the whole "option" talk is kind of muddied.

Yes, the Jazz definitely need a primary creator, but with Lauri, you dont have to have a strict 2/3 guy option. Lauri is your primary off-ball option and you need a secondary creator to help the #1 creator. Hell, even if you get a #1 option, Lauri still might be your leading scorer if that #1 option is a skilled playmaker.

It sounds like they are searching for a young JIngles.

 

[KqWIN]

And I'll just say, the whole "option" talk is kind of muddied.

Yes, the Jazz definitely need a primary creator, but with Lauri, you dont have to have a strict 2/3 guy option. Lauri is your primary off-ball option and you need a secondary creator to help the #1 creator. Hell, even if you get a #1 option, Lauri still might be your leading scorer if that #1 option is a skilled playmaker.

First option, second option stuff never made sense in the first place. Bunch of media jargon that is good for the layman but can't be taken serious in deeper discussion.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I dont think this person exists.

They do. Maybe not here so much but they out there.

 

[HadAnEffectHere]

This next week or so is really crucial for the tank and Ainge holding onto Collin Sexton hoping he can squeeze out another second round pick or something is close to madness.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

First option, second option stuff never made sense in the first place. Bunch of media jargon that is good for the layman but can't be taken serious in deeper discussion.

All that matter is can you throw the guy the ball at the end of the game and get a bucket.

-Media guy somewhere (probably)

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Tbh, I think this kind of demonstrates my frustration with much of the tanking crowd. You listed all the ways the Jazz could have improved, but they did not even try. I remember those discussions, and so many were adamant against doing anything besides tanking. Those who were the most against doing anything that could improve the roster were the ones who wanted to tank the most. People can only see tanking as a path to get better. I find the tanking discussion extremely annoying because it's often a closed door. It's easy to say, "we'll rebuild and get draft picks and draft great players" without acknowledging the extreme difficulty/luck required in that happening. OTOH, we know the difficulty of building from the margins. Yeah it's hard to hit a home run on a late draft pick, trade, or FA move with more limited options....that doesn't necessarily mean that it's the worse option.

What it really boils down to is this idea that tanking is the only way and that it's necessary. Also, I cannot stand is when pro-tank people where it as a badge of honor that says they are the one's willing to sacrifice and do what's necessary. This adds to this false dichotomy that tanking is the only way. But those same fans who are willing to "sacrifice" the current state likely enjoy the comfort of having no expectations to win and are also unwilling to "sacrifice" any threat of the future to win now. I can't blame anyone for the way they feel about things, if it feels better to suck now with a promise of hope later instead of trying to win more now with a promise of sucking later....so be it. But don't act like it's the only path and any considerations of other routes is because that person just isn't willing to deal with the losing.

And I'm sure there is some annoying stuff coming the other way as well....but just for me personally, I find it always to be frustrating/circular conversation and it's not because people argue that tanking can't work or hasn't ever worked. It's because people argue that only tanking can work.

Yeah... I think there are a lot of these loud people out there but I think there are other that are tank appreciators or tank supporters that see it more reasonably. DL did a lot of things really well... he also fell short in a lot of ways (who knows how much was him and how much was his bosses tho).

The good thing with our situation is IF we find the guy with a high pick or otherwise... that the cupboards are so full that we can buy the other pieces needed or have many chance to find them. But I agree with the sentiment of your post. The reason I lost my damn mind when we took Udoka was one of those picks had to hit in a big-ish way and we made the dumbest bet possible. We blew one of the best low probability opportunities we had on a 3rd string center (I knew we'd bring a vet in and oh my did we ever). Not saying we win the title if we go with Mcdaniels or Bane but we have a lot more to work with at that point.

 

[default]

Even though Flag is probably the better player, Harper is a perfect fit here.

 

[KqWIN]

This next week or so is really crucial for the tank and Ainge holding onto Collin Sexton hoping he can squeeze out another second round pick or something is close to madness.

Big reason why I've been saying I would trade him for expiring. He's not helping the franchise, there's no point of having him here for the next two seasons. "Winning the trade" is not more important than the tank.