Conley is a chemistry problem and we should trade him

[Handlogten's Heros]

It sucks indeed.

Not sure what other options were available though (realistically). Tobias was overpaid (Bojan is better for what he gets), DLo is meh, Kemba is amazing but probably we were not on his list. Other rumored players were Niko and Portis. The thing is: had we acquired someone in that list in free agency, then Bojan would not be here. I have no idea what other trade possibilities were available (and we will never know)

There were just lots of options... not gonna try and reconstruct it... anything I say has hindsight bias. Bojan has been awesome... the other additions sucked.

I do wish we played hardball with Memphis though... we gave up one pick too many and gave up Jae instead of Dante. Giving up 25-50% percent too much at the time makes it even harder to swallow.

 

[LogGrad98]

It sucks indeed.

Not sure what other options were available though (realistically). Tobias was overpaid (Bojan is better for what he gets), DLo is meh, Kemba is amazing but probably we were not on his list. Other rumored players were Niko and Portis. The thing is: had we acquired someone in that list in free agency, then Bojan would not be here. I have no idea what other trade possibilities were available (and we will never know)

Please stop with the ******** assertion that Bogie specifically said he would never come there without Conley on the roster. That's already been debunked. There is no way to say he wouldn't have come with "anyone else on that list".

 

[fishonjazz]

Jazz are now 12-11 when Mike plays > 20 mins. Jazz are 20-4 when he plays < 20 / doesn’t play.

Some of that is difference in strength of schedule but ya, Conley has sucked pretty bad for the jazz

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[fishonjazz]

Correlation doesn't equal causation. Mike playing over 20min coincides with our brutal part of the schedule and our bench being non-existent. As Locke pointed out, Conley had a positive +/- as a starter. Him not playing overlaps with one of the easiest schedules in the league (playing only one team over .500). And now we are playing big teams again, which is exposing some weaknesses but everyone is quick to point at Conley as the culprit.

If you look closely, our perimeter defense is at fault: Ingles, Royce and Bojan has been unable to defend big scoring threats. Even Donovan has been average at that end.

This is true. It's also true that Conley has sucked for the jazz.

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[latin jazz]

There were just lots of options... not gonna try and reconstruct it... anything I say has hindsight bias. Bojan has been awesome... the other additions sucked.

I do wish we played hardball with Memphis though... we gave up one pick too many and gave up Jae instead of Dante. Giving up 25-50% percent too much at the time makes it even harder to swallow.

Agree. We probably gave an extra asset we didn't have to. In particular, giving away our future 1st limits what we can do now.

 

[latin jazz]

This is true. It's also true that Conley has sucked for the jazz.

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Yeah. Agree with HH. He should be winning us games. Instead, we are stuck discussing whether or not he is a problem. He is being a non factor so far, but hardly the main reason we lost games in the beginning of the season and lately. And by all accounts, he was playing reasonably well before getting injured. I hope he improves for the benefit of the team.

 

[fishonjazz]

It sucks indeed.

Not sure what other options were available though (realistically). Tobias was overpaid (Bojan is better for what he gets), DLo is meh, Kemba is amazing but probably we were not on his list. Other rumored players were Niko and Portis. The thing is: had we acquired someone in that list in free agency, then Bojan would not be here. I have no idea what other trade possibilities were available (and we will never know)

Malcom brogdon

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[latin jazz]

Malcom brogdon

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I love Brogdon. But Indy keeps Bogey if we acquired him.

Another interesting target was Dinwiddie but he became unavailable once the Nets decided to move on from DLo.

Everything points out that the Jazz front office was pretty set on acquiring Conley early (according to Tony Jones, Conley was "their man" all along)

 

[sahlensguy]

There were just lots of options... not gonna try and reconstruct it... anything I say has hindsight bias. Bojan has been awesome... the other additions sucked.

I do wish we played hardball with Memphis though... we gave up one pick too many and gave up Jae instead of Dante. Giving up 25-50% percent too much at the time makes it even harder to swallow.

I'd just like to throw in that Clarkson > Crowder. Without keeping Exum, we we wouldn't have Jordan.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I'd just like to throw in that Clarkson > Crowder. Without keeping Exum, we we wouldn't have Jordan.

We could still have gotten him... they wanted the second round picks and less salary this year because they were close to the tax... crowder could have gotten us seconds in another deal if we wanted to go that route... maybe a first if we took on salary... so we’d have more picks... Exum was salary... and he was bad salary... crowder is good salary and a much better asset... so this argument is not really valid.

 

[sahlensguy]

We could still have gotten him... they wanted the second round picks and less salary this year because they were close to the tax... crowder could have gotten us seconds in another deal if we wanted to go that route... maybe a first if we took on salary... so we’d have more picks... Exum was salary... and he was bad salary... crowder is good salary and a much better asset... so this argument is not really valid.

Jordan's expiring is nearly $5 million than Jae's this year. Point taken.

 

[nateboz]

Correlation doesn't equal causation. Mike playing over 20min coincides with our brutal part of the schedule and our bench being non-existent. As Locke pointed out, Conley had a positive +/- as a starter. Him not playing overlaps with one of the easiest schedules in the league (playing only one team over .500). And now we are playing big teams again, which is exposing some weaknesses but everyone is quick to point at Conley as the culprit.

If you look closely, our perimeter defense is at fault: Ingles, Royce and Bojan has been unable to defend big scoring threats. Even Donovan has been average at that end.

I wouldn't say Houston without Harden Westbrook and Capella. Or the spurs(12 seed) minus Aldridge is a good team.

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[nateboz]

I like when someone says correlation is not causation then points out a guy who has been playing poorly has a positive +- when he plays with our other best players. Not tryin to bust ya chops but Conley has been bad and the starting lineup is a ton better when you sub joe for Mike.

I’m close to calling it on mike... there’s a laundry list of things we give him as excuses or we point to things that say he’s actually been fine. He’s been **** compared to last year and compared to what we thought we’d get... everyone is like “he moved and that is hard so it makes people miss shots” but JC and Bojan are alright... he needs to play better soon and if not then let’s stop kidding ourselves.

No more “but he’s mike Conley” stuff... take the name off the stats and we’d be wondering if this scrub is an nba player. Play better or I hope to hell the front office finds a trade for something that works.

Let's change Mudiay and Conley's jerseys to a blank ones. Now who would you rather have playing based on the first 4 months of this year?

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[mdalby]

Mudiay seems to acclimated just fine.

 

[nateboz]

I love Brogdon. But Indy keeps Bogey if we acquired him.

Another interesting target was Dinwiddie but he became unavailable once the Nets decided to move on from DLo.

Everything points out that the Jazz front office was pretty set on acquiring Conley early (according to Tony Jones, Conley was "their man" all along)

He came to Utah because Utah offered 1 more year to his contract. Conley trade was a great selling point, not the "reason"

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[LogGrad98]

Yeah. Agree with HH. He should be winning us games. Instead, we are stuck discussing whether or not he is a problem. He is being a non factor so far, but hardly the main reason we lost games in the beginning of the season and lately. And by all accounts, he was playing reasonably well before getting injured. I hope he improves for the benefit of the team.

Other than the fact that his presence is disruptive to the way Joe is used and that affects the rest of the team. As part of the team the impact isn't just how bad shooting or turnovers or whatever in a vacuum. It's also how that and his role affect the rest of the team. Joe and DM are at their best when they can share ball handling duties. Adding in a ball-dominant PG disrupts that. Add into it that this ball-dominant PG is playing like crap and the problem is just compounded.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I wouldn't say Houston without Harden Westbrook and Capella. Or the spurs(12 seed) minus Aldridge is a good team.

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The Houston game we played bad. Last night we were okay. They shot really well... that happens. having those two games in a row is compounding how this feels.

To me it is just becoming clear that we can do better with what Mike is costing us... the name still has trade value and if we did parlay him into CP3 I think we become a contender. I think its doable... we could also pivot and use him to bet some backup big or wing help plus salary flexibility.

One thing I'm not sure anyone realized with the announcement that the cap projection will be much lower next year, thanks Morey, is that we likely can't retain Jordan Clarkson and use the full MLE without going into the tax. So are we going to jump into the tax next year to get better?

 

[latin jazz]

I wouldn't say Houston without Harden Westbrook and Capella. Or the spurs(12 seed) minus Aldridge is a good team.

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Obviously, even shorthanded, both are better than most of the teams we faced during the winning streak. They have good coaches and made life difficult for us. The Spurs have been irregular but also had some impressive wins in January (Bucks, Toronto, Boston, etc).

 

[latin jazz]

Other than the fact that his presence is disruptive to the way Joe is used and that affects the rest of the team. As part of the team the impact isn't just how bad shooting or turnovers or whatever in a vacuum. It's also how that and his role affect the rest of the team. Joe and DM are at their best when they can share ball handling duties. Adding in a ball-dominant PG disrupts that. Add into it that this ball-dominant PG is playing like crap and the problem is just compounded.

I disagree Conley is greatly affecting Joe's play now. They are being staggered (hence Conley coming off the bench). Joe is still running lots of pick n roll with Rudy. He is been in a mini slump lately, not only on offense but most importantly defensevely. He is been really bad on that end. You can't blame that on Conley.

If Conley starts, then it's a different discussion about how the ball is gonna be shared.

 

[LogGrad98]

I disagree Conley is greatly affecting Joe's play now. They are being staggered (hence Conley coming off the bench). Joe is still running lots of pick n roll with Rudy. He is been in a mini slump lately, not only on offense but most importantly defensevely. He is been really bad on that end. You can't blame that on Conley.

If Conley starts, then it's a different discussion about how the ball is gonna be shared.

Right now sure, for the last few games. At the start of the year it had a big impact.