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Donald is about to go through some things...

One Brow said:
Attacking Kiev would not be (and was not) a "minor incursion", regardless.
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True, but it wasn't about what Biden approved of. It's that Biden was projecting weakness. The apparent lack of resolve in the lead up is what I believe Putin was keying on.
 
Al-O-Meter said:
Not at all. What I'm saying is that your claimed motivation is an ahistorical revisionist fantasy. There is zero evidence that Trump was fearful of escalation. The phone call to Zelensky wasn't Trump claiming he had the weapons, the greatest weapons really. The weapons are so good, but they can't be sent. Trump wanted to send the weapons but his advisors said no. It would escalate conflict they said.

That is not how things went down, and Javelins are a single weapon system. We were sending weapons under Trump, and even sending Javelins. I've heard no one but you claim any delay on the part of Trump was over fears of escalation.

Trump sent the weapons and for a time we had peace. Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum
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Trump very well cant say he was worried about angering Russia either though can he? Given the russiagate scandal and how dems had been painting him as Putins puppet, that would not have been a very good explanation, right? Escalation is what his advisors feared and mentioned, but that is not what Trump has ever said, you are correct.
I find that is is easier to gage Trump by things he does rather than says... I dunno call me crazy.
 
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Al-O-Meter said:
One thing nobody has accused Trump of was not speaking his mind. If he didn't say it then he wasn't thinking it. No, he was not worried about angering Russia.
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I find that is is easier to gage Trump by things he does rather than says... I dunno call me crazy.
 
Mongoose said:
I find that is is easier to gage Trump by things he does rather than says...
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...such as sending lethal aid to Ukraine, which you gage as an indication of fear of angering Russia.

I'm thinking you "gage" things by saying your opinion and trying to stuff historical square pegs into round holes. No, Trump was not afraid of escalating conflict with Russia if he sent weapons. It is in fact the opposite. Trump sent weapons to Ukraine and for a time we had peace.
 
Al-O-Meter said:
...such as sending lethal aid to Ukraine, which you gage as an indication of fear of angering Russia.

I'm thinking you "gage" things by saying your opinion and trying to stuff historical square pegs into round holes. No, Trump was not afraid of escalating conflict with Russia if he sent weapons. It is in fact the opposite. Trump sent weapons to Ukraine and for a time we had peace.
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yes sending lethal aid to Ukraine after first putting a freeze on them (some might call it hesitation). Maybe he did send them for purely selfish reasons like you mentioned, but that still does not change the fears and opinions that his advisors and predecessor explained as the reason why they were opposed to it, so for lack of any other explanation I'm going to go with this one. It really doesn't matter anyway, we can still conclude he was receiving pressure to send weapons and aid by war hawks at the pentagon and department of defense just like Bush and Obama. All of Trumps internal discussions about why he froze the aid was redacted, so I guess we probably wont ever know exactly why-
www.newsweek.com

Ukraine Documents on Military Aid Freeze Heavily Redacted, Watchdog Says

The Center for Public Integrity sought more than 100 pages of documents from the Department of Defense and White House Office of Budget and Management, much of which came back heavily redacted.
www.newsweek.com www.newsweek.com
 
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Mongoose said:
All of Trumps internal discussions about why he froze the aid was redacted, so I guess we probably wont ever know exactly why-
www.newsweek.com

Ukraine Documents on Military Aid Freeze Heavily Redacted, Watchdog Says

The Center for Public Integrity sought more than 100 pages of documents from the Department of Defense and White House Office of Budget and Management, much of which came back heavily redacted.
www.newsweek.com www.newsweek.com
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...says your article dated 12/13/2019. Then on 1/16/2020 articles of impeachment over the delay in sending weapons to Ukraine were submitted to the Senate and they set about examining the evidence your Newsweek author couldn't see when he wrote his piece. We know exactly why the weapons were delayed and it wasn't over fears of angering the Russians or potentially escalating conflict.
 
Al-O-Meter said:
...says your article dated 12/13/2019. Then on 1/16/2020 articles of impeachment over the delay in sending weapons to Ukraine were submitted to the Senate and they set about examining the evidence your Newsweek author couldn't see when he wrote his piece. We know exactly why the weapons were delayed and it wasn't over fears of angering the Russians or potentially escalating conflict.
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The point you should be arguing is that Trump did not receive pressure to send aid, but I think most could conclude that he did as did Obama and Bush and Biden by the “humanitarians” in the pentagon and department of defense.
I’m not someone that cares about Trump specifically I am more concerned that both parties are serving the same political deep state. It’s an imperialist uniparty system that wages war all over the world and wants to censor and surveil Americans.
 
Mongoose said:
Yes I'm sure Obama had righteous reasons or perhaps he didn't have enough selfish reasons to send aid and weapons. If only he had listened to those war machine humanitarians.
So you think Ukraine is potentially exceptionally corrupt, yet you still want to continue to send them tens of billions of dollars and prolonging a war that is costing hundreds of thousands of lives?
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Nations are always selfish, and their leaders do things for their personal interest or their nation's interest. If it happens, "righteous" is a side benefit.

Every country is potentially corrupt. Since the revolution, I'm not aware that Ukraine is especially so. Even if it were, Ukraine has a right to defend itself, and the US has decided it's in the national interest to help them.

The alternative to "prolonging a war" is Russia committing genocide and trying to eliminate any such thing as a Ukrainian identity, costing millions of lives. Surrender does not get the moral high ground here.
 
One Brow said:
If so, Putin badly misjudged what Biden said.
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What Putin misjudged was NATO. When Russia rolled in to Ukraine, it wasn't the USA who was first to provide meaningful aid. It was NATO. Biden then rushed to jump in front of the parade France, Germany, and the former Soviet states had formed.
 
Al-O-Meter said:
What Putin misjudged was NATO. When Russia rolled in to Ukraine, it wasn't the USA who was first to provide meaningful aid. It was NATO. Biden then rushed to jump in front of the parade France, Germany, and the former Soviet states had formed.
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According to this timeline, Biden announced support the day after the invasion, and on the same day as the NATO Response Force was activated. That's not basically a tie?
 
One Brow said:
According to this timeline, Biden announced support the day after the invasion, and on the same day as the NATO Response Force was activated. That's not basically a tie?
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I believe the lion's share from the early weapons deliveries after the invasion were all from European NATO countries, but I will take back what I said earlier about what Putin misjudged. I believe the reality is that Putin misjudged a lot of things, and one of those may be Biden.
 
Al-O-Meter said:
I believe the lion's share from the early weapons deliveries after the invasion were all from European NATO countries, but I will take back what I said earlier about what Putin misjudged. I believe the reality is that Putin misjudged a lot of things, and one of those may be Biden.
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I believe you are right about weapons deliveries.
 
fishonjazz said:
Well ya, he is going to try to be a bit different of course to not be obvious.
I too see a difference between them. But also see many many similarities. I also see how they dont post at the same time…… well until someone pointed out that they dont post at the same time. Then of course right after it was pointed out suddenly they were posting at the same time.

I dont know if they are the same person but there is enough there to warrant an investigation imo.
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Exactly. It’d be too obvious if he acted EXACTLY the same. So of course he’s going to act slightly different. He pretends to be a disaffected liberal with mongoose. He was 100 percent MAGA with jazzy. He acted like he didn’t really care much about politics with steak. I suspect he was also heathme too, as he’d spam the forum with lame *** memes and jokes.

The common thread is he’s a troll who gets off negative attention. OB feeds him with every post. He’s playing whack a mole with someone who doesn’t care how many times he’s proven wrong, just as long as people are responding to him. The problem is that OB and this troll **** up entire threads for the rest of us. I wish, if OB wants to continue to refute these posts, that they’d do it in a direct message manner. Something tells me that suddenly jazzy would lose interest really fast in arguing with him if it were done privately and not publicly. While it would still have the same purpose for OB, correcting him.
 
fishonjazz said:
Well ya, he is going to try to be a bit different of course to not be obvious.
I too see a difference between them. But also see many many similarities. I also see how they dont post at the same time…… well until someone pointed out that they dont post at the same time. Then of course right after it was pointed out suddenly they were posting at the same time.

I dont know if they are the same person but there is enough there to warrant an investigation imo.
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When I asked Mongoose a question, he answered without a hint of rage directed at me personally. I would never expect that from Jazzy…..
 
One Brow said:
We all have wishes regarding other posters' behavior.
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I applaud your cooler head in this exchange. The Thriller told you that your content f's up JF and Fish agrees with him! The Thriller and Fish think that if you want to post your opinions then you should go do it someplace where they don't have to read what you have to say.

OB-Fup.gif


And your response at being told by The Thriller and Fish to get off this forum was an unbelievably civil "We all have wishes regarding other posters behavior." Well done my man.
 
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