Donovan Mitchell’s Historic Season

[fishonjazz]

I think there is one slight myth about Simmons though. He does have a jumper and he has hit it a number of times this year. He believes that it is not an efficient enough play yet to justify him not driving and dishing. To make further steps he will need it. And I agree if he can't take some more shots in the playoffs that might become a big problem. But tbh, that will only become a problem if guys around him go ice cold. Which I think they could on a given night.

As for his teammates - from a basketball standpoint they must absolutely love the guy. I mean who wouldn't love a guy that puts up double digit assists and first, second and third thoughts are about getting them involved. From that perspective they would 'love' him a lot. '

From a personable perspective, it's hard to imagine them warming to him as much as the Jazz players do to Mitchell. Mitchell seems to really care about his teammates etc and it isn't just all about winning. Simmons strikes me as a kind of player who suffers no fools. It's all about the prize - not so much the journey... but that might be unfair to him. Simmons doesn't really strike me as being one of the boys - but rather a bit aloof. His personality does seem to contrast rather glaringly with Embiid (and a guy like Mitchell tbh).

I think it is hard to knock Simmons too much on anything atm. People say, the guy hasn't hit a three and doesn't have a jumper. Well at this stage it hardly matters - but it very well might in a couple of weeks. Think the jury needs to hold out a little.

One narrative that has probably got to stop is the idea that Donovan should win ROTY (not that it matters I get it) cause he is 'leading' his team into the playoffs. Another 'offense only' based assessment. Gobert and Embiid are both clearly the best players on their teams atm. Most standard and advanced metrics back this up. In fact, the gap between Gobert and Mitchell is larger than Embiid to Simmons. And further food for thought - both players by way of RPM are the THIRD best players on their teams. Ingles and Cov their teams' second best players. (But Ingles ranks lower than Simmons).

The big difference though is that Gobert according to some advanced stats is still a bit of an offensive hole. Unlike Embiid for the 76ers... This may make it more impressive that Mitchell is able to carry the team offensively the way he does.

One other thing, I find it hard to say a guy only has impressive assist numbers. For a guy who clearly doesn't look for his own shot much, he still averages 16 per at a clip of 53%. It's not like he is Lonzo.

ROTY is a tie...

Mitchell should win ROY cause he is a rookie. I think the rookie of the year award should be awarded to a rookie.

 

[Piso]

Add another 20+ game to his resume. That ties him with LeBron James at 40 for the season.

Lillard is next (41) with Durant (44) on the horizon.

Complete list
1 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1970 73
1 Michael Jordan 1985 73
3 Walt Bellamy 1962 72
4 Wilt Chamberlain 1960 71
5 Elvin Hayes 1969 70
6 Sidney Wicks 1972 67
7 Oscar Robinson 1961 62
7 David Robinson 1990 62
9 Walter Davis 1978 61
10 Shaquille O'Neal 1993 60
11 Ron Harper 1987 59
11 Geoff Petrie 1971 59
13 Rick Barry 1966 55
13 Blake Griffin 2011 55
13 Bernard King 1978 55
16 Glenn Robinson 1995 54
17 Bill Cartwright 1980 53
17 Terry Cummings 1983 53
17 Jay Vincent 1982 53
20 Pete Maravich 1971 52
20 Earl Monroe 1968 52
22 Tim Duncan 1998 50
22 Darrell Griffith 1981 50
22 Kelly Tripucka 1982 50
25 Carmelo Anthony 2004 49
25 Ralph Sampson 1984 49
27 Elgin Baylor 1959 48
27 Terry Dischinger 1963 48
27 Allen Iverson 1997 48
27 Clark Kellogg 1983 48
31 Hakeem Olajuwon 1985 47
31 Mitch Richmond 1989 47
33 Alex Groza 1950 46
33 Larry Bird 1980 46
35 Marques Johnson 1978 45
35 Alonzo Mourning 1993 45
37 Kevin Durant 2008 44
38 Larry Johnson 1992 42
39 Elton Brand 2000 41
39 Tyreke Evans 2010 41
39 Damian Lillard 2013 41
42 Willis Reed 1965 40
42 Shareef Abdur-Rahim 1997 40
42 Adrian Dantley 1977 40
42 Lebron James 2004 40
42 Donovan Mitchell 2018 40

 

[elan_prodigy]

Mitchell should win ROY cause he is a rookie. I think the rookie of the year award should be awarded to a rookie.

So you consider his red shirt year an advantage?

Just like DM had an advantage in the Louisville system instead of being at LSU.

Or how DM didnt have to leave home at 15 and move to the other side of the world.

Or how DM had zero media attention/pressure while Simmons has been the #1 prospect since he was 15.

Life isnt fair, people have different advantages throughout life but the NBA has a crystal clear definition of what a rookie is. Simmons IS a rookie.

 

[gregbroncs]

Obviously I'd take Mitchell as ROTY. I think he should win it. But what both players are doing is impressive. Simmons will probably win it because he was the assumed ROTY before the season started and has played well enough, in the opinion of a lot of those making the assumption to keep it. I'll be pleasantly surprised if Mitchell wins it but the east coast bias is real and I expect Simmons to win it.

 

[fishonjazz]

So you consider his red shirt year an advantage?

Just like DM had an advantage in the Louisville system instead of being at LSU.

Or how DM didnt have to leave home at 15 and move to the other side of the world.

Or how DM had zero media attention/pressure while Simmons has been the #1 prospect since he was 15.

Life isnt fair, people have different advantages throughout life but the NBA has a crystal clear definition of what a rookie is. Simmons IS a rookie.

I consider a rookie a guy who is spending his first year in the nba. I think the ROY award should only be elligle to those players.

 

[Coach Ellis]

So you consider his red shirt year an advantage?

Just like DM had an advantage in the Louisville system instead of being at LSU.

Or how DM didnt have to leave home at 15 and move to the other side of the world.

Or how DM had zero media attention/pressure while Simmons has been the #1 prospect since he was 15.

Life isnt fair, people have different advantages throughout life but the NBA has a crystal clear definition of what a rookie is. Simmons IS a rookie.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree. All things considered, there’s a huge advantage to taking a redshirt year for an 82 game season at the NBA level over ANY other basketball experience - pro or college - prior to that. Even in competitive Euro leagues, the number of games per season vs. what the NBA schedule looks like is significant. Being inside that process and working with the best coaches, trainers and staff in the world makes a difference.

 

[elan_prodigy]

We’ll just have to agree to disagree. All things considered, there’s a huge advantage to taking a redshirt year for an 82 game season at the NBA level over ANY other basketball experience - pro or college - prior to that. Even in competitive Euro leagues, the number of games per season vs. what the NBA schedule looks like is significant. Being inside that process and working with the best coaches, trainers and staff in the world makes a difference.

No more than playing for Louisville and being coached up by Pitino instead of wasting a year at LSU.

 

[Coach Ellis]

No more than playing for Louisville and being coached up by Pitino instead of wasting a year at LSU.

Sorry, but you’re just wrong about that. Nobody made him commit to LSU. He could’ve chosen to play for Pitino or Callipari or Coach K. for his one and done. An 82 game season of professional coaching, nutrition, strength training and top shelf medical care does trump a 34 game season at any college in the nation.

 

[str8line]

Mitchell should win ROY cause he is a rookie. I think the rookie of the year award should be awarded to a rookie.

Simple yet profound. WTF is the NBA thinking?

 

[str8line]

So you consider his red shirt year an advantage?

Just like DM had an advantage in the Louisville system instead of being at LSU.

Or how DM didnt have to leave home at 15 and move to the other side of the world.

Or how DM had zero media attention/pressure while Simmons has been the #1 prospect since he was 15.

Life isnt fair, people have different advantages throughout life but the NBA has a crystal clear definition of what a rookie is. Simmons IS a rookie.

Yeah but Simmons learned to tie his shoes before Donovan. And he stopped breast-feeding before Donovan. And I have it on good knowledge that Simmons got to leave home and see the world at 15 while Donovan was dealing with a girl who claimed bullying because he and his friends only rated her a four.

 

[elan_prodigy]

Sorry, but you’re just wrong about that. Nobody made him commit to LSU. He could’ve chosen to play for Pitino or Callipari or Coach K. for his one and done. An 82 game season of professional coaching, nutrition, strength training and top shelf medical care does trump a 34 game season at any college in the nation.

Thats fair.

I just dont see it as an issue. They are both 21 and both have had "advantages" over the other.

The NBA is clear on what a rookie is, nothing has changed, you guys act like they changed the rules for Simmons.

 

[Coach Ellis]

Thats fair.

I just dont see it as an issue. They are both 21 and both have had "advantages" over the other.

The NBA is clear on what a rookie is, nothing has changed, you guys act like they changed the rules for Simmons.

You are correct about that, but I just disagree with the whole concept of a redshirt rookie being eligible for rookie of the year honors. If they keep the rule as is, I’d factor the redshirt season into my evaluations if I were a voter - I’m pretty sure that some of them will do that anyways. If it’s close, I’d always lean towards going with a true rookie for my vote.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I think they are both deserving and extremely talented rookies. But Mitchell is literally carrying a team offensively to the playoffs. Something unheard of as a rookie. Gobert obviously is a huge help to the team defensively but Mitchell has filled in the shoes for a good All-star level player and we have not missed a beat losing Hayward.

There are things Simmons does better than Mitchell. He is a better passer and rebounder. Although as I have shown his rebound numbers are a pretty empty stat since 90% of them are uncontested rebounds and honestly in the clutch I would trust Mitchell to go snatch a defensive rebound if we really needed it more since I think he has more fight and passion in him. Simmons also has elite size for his position which helps a lot.

Simmons is a great player who puts up good stats and helps his team win as the clear second fiddle to their best player on both ends of the court Embiid.

Then the biggest difference is that Mitchell is a whole different monster in the fourth and in the clutch. He is a much better player then and Simmons gets worse in those situations like most rookies.

In the clutch Mitchell is averaging the 8th most Points in that situation just behind Curry and Westbrook and just ahead of Durant, Davis and Oladipo. Simmons is 83rd just behind JJ Reddick and just ahead of Olynyk and Ilyasova. Oh and they both put up the same Assists in the clutch as each other so he has no advantage there.

In the 4th Mitchell averages 6.5 points 1 assist and 1 rebound.

Simmons averages 1.9 rebounds and 1.6 assists. Oh, he also shoots his worse percentage from FTs in the fourth at an abysmal 55% and that gets even worse when the game is tied and he shoots 42% from the FT line while Mitchell Shoots 82%.

These stat comparisons arent meant to bag on Simmons just to point out how elite and rare what Mitchell is doing is. Rookies dont do what he does even 2nd year guys pretending to be rookies.

There are things elite and rare that Simmons is doing as well such as his assist numbers. But most of his rare stats are around his triple doubles and things of that nature that are neat but less meaningful except his passing.

I am curious to see where Simmons goes this post season and next season. He is obviously a talent but his game has such giant holes in it. He cant shoot a FT or shoot a jump shot which isnt as big of deal in the regular season but when defense and scouting steps up it will become an issue. Teams will send him to the FT line more and more and leave him wide open from outside. I am not sure you can play Simmons in a close playoff game in the 4th or OT. If he has a great work ethic and works hard to improve then I think he will become a great player. If he doesnt then I think his career will stay pretty idle or decline. He might have to switch to PF and switch up his game as well. If this season is an indication it does not show me things are going to get better for him since he has declined this year. But ill hold out until I see him next year with an off season to try and improve. So far the closest player to him in NBA history is MCW.

As someone who has followed Simmons his whole career and watches him pretty carefully how do you think he teammates feel about him? Do you think they like him as much as Mitchell's teammates like him?

Both guys are so good only disappointment is the arguments from both fan based that it is “our guy” and it’s not close.

Either guy getting it is totally fair and reasonable. It’s a legitimate toss up.

DM has been as consistent as any #1 scorer I can remember us having... as a freaking rookie. 25, 5, 4 next year... too low? We are in great shape.

 

[JAZZGASM]

Both Simmons and Mitchell are deserving. Simmons has more time with the ball in his hands than any other player in the league, and IIRC, about 50% more than DM. A player that is ball dominant and runs the show for a team should have pretty good stats.

I personally think the ROY Award is pointless. Let Simmons have it. Give DM even more drive to prove people wrong.

 

[Et tu Brute]

Mitchell should win ROY cause he is a rookie. I think the rookie of the year award should be awarded to a rookie.

Blake Griffin though right? And why don't they just change that rule.

I heard this mentioned somewhere. If Ben Simmons is ineligible for ROTY he should definitely win Most Improved

 

[oneye]

Both Simmons and Mitchell are deserving. Simmons has more time with the ball in his hands than any other player in the league, and IIRC, about 50% more than DM. A player that is ball dominant and runs the show for a team should have pretty good stats.

I personally think the ROY Award is pointless. Let Simmons have it. Give DM even more drive to prove people wrong.

I’d say that about a lot of guys but I’d like to see Donovan get it and have some recognition for what he did as a rookie this year. Both deserve the award, but Donovan’s been incredible.

 

[Et tu Brute]

Obviously I'd take Mitchell as ROTY. I think he should win it. But what both players are doing is impressive. Simmons will probably win it because he was the assumed ROTY before the season started and has played well enough, in the opinion of a lot of those making the assumption to keep it. I'll be pleasantly surprised if Mitchell wins it but the east coast bias is real and I expect Simmons to win it.

But the funny thing was people had forgotten about him. Remember that rookie survey - everyone thought DSJ would win. I think Ben came out and said 'they will remember (me)'. I can't quite remember if the media had forgotten about him. Either way - Mitchell was well done people's lists.

 

[elan_prodigy]

I’d say that about a lot of guys but I’d like to see Donovan get it and have some recognition for what he did as a rookie this year. Both deserve the award, but Donovan’s been incredible.

You dont think DM has had recognition this year?

 

[oneye]

You dont think DM has had recognition this year?

Oh he has.....I’m just saying if there’s a guy who you really want to win something it’s him, just because he carries himself in the non-arrogant way he does. He’s got lots of credit and attention, it’s just as a fan you can’t help but hope he gets as much recognition as possible. I’d love to see him win ROY.

 

[Thee Idiotic Minivan K]

Red shirt rookie or not, it's still damn impressive what Simmons is doing and believe both should be recognized for the historic seasons they are having with Co MVP's