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Donovan refuses to say whether or not he wants to be in Utah moving forward

ATL is far and away the most likely destination IMO. There are a million ways that trade could get done because the Hawks have a good variety of assets. It would put the Hawks at the top of the East...basically switching places where the Jazz were, which is a desirable place if you build a balanced team that isn't soft.

I think getting Collins is a given....Collins seems like an unhappy camper. I hope the Jazz can get Okongwu or Hunter in addition.

I'm a believer in Jalen Johnson as a big, athletic wing who can play on the ball. I'd really like him to come back in the package. He's really young and a year or two away from being rotational, but he could be a game-changer if his offense comes together.
 
I think the calculus on trading Rudy Gobert is actually quite simple. You treat him as an asset in your portfolio that has peaked in value and is likely to decline, so you'd like to parlay it into a package with more upside--both in terms of talent level and in terms of fit playing in a more versatile offense. You bet that you can get 70% of the production at 50% of the cost. You're looking for the next Jarrett Allen.

Meanwhile, you upgrade Royce O'Neale's position as a starter with a better/longer player. You move Mitchell to the 1 and get a bigger 3D guard at the 2.
 
Trading Rudy, 30 years old, who can't shoot and with a defense who can only decline with ages coming is possible but i dont expect to get high return for it. Even Atlanta, i dont see them giving Capela who is younger.
Trading Don can bring more value but i doubt that he will be happy to move in a team where he can be only the 2nd or 3rd option. And i also doubt he can make much more money than now. Unless he require for a trade which is still possible.

I still think the best option are :
- To fire Quin, he is not a too level coach and we need to impulse new leadership.
- Trading some players who may have some value ( Conley, Bodga, Gay..) , wont be easy.
- Hiring a good PG and let Don focus on shooting and attacking the rim.

Let's see wht FO decide. But whatever the i=option they choose, the worst one will be do to nothing....
 
You're so lame if you are saying Paschall vs Neto. Who cares? Paschall was a small ball C we had success with this postseason and he never played.

Neto was let go for money. It was stupid. He wasn't let go for Don. That train of thought is toxic and you're better than that.

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Wut? Gawd man calm down with your helicopter mom bull ****. Tim McMahon said Eric was brought in to help Donovan… we gave up a pick to bring him in… I said it was an acceptable level of catering.

I merely stated the Neto example to show that they haven’t done that in the past. It wasn’t a money thing… that is what they said cuz they dumb AF… he got a minimum deal and has been a more useful player than Paschall… just an example that this type of stuff is not normally done for players… even if it is minor… you can go back to making out with your poster of Donovan now.
 
I think the calculus on trading Rudy Gobert is actually quite simple. You treat him as an asset in your portfolio that has peaked in value and is likely to decline, so you'd like to parlay it into a package with more upside--both in terms of talent level and in terms of fit playing in a more versatile offense. You bet that you can get 70% of the production at 50% of the cost. You're looking for the next Jarrett Allen.

Meanwhile, you upgrade Royce O'Neale's position as a starter with a better/longer player. You move Mitchell to the 1 and get a bigger 3D guard at the 2.

It doesn't really work that way, and teams know this. I don't know what percent you think Capela is of Rudy, but the reality is that ATL is probably a top 5 defense with Rudy and a bottom 10 with Capela...Rudy is also a much better offensive player, That difference takes ATL out of the play in zone and puts them firmly in #1 seed territory. Even if Rudy gets paid double what Capela does, the likelihood of of you getting another $17-$18M player that makes up the difference between Capela and Gobert is extremely unlikely. For example, John Collins is a good player and $20M is probably a fair contract. But Rudy is going to win so man more games for you than those two combined. This, of course, is without mentioning that the cap isn't static, it's dynamic. If the Jazz replace Rudy with a player that costs half as less, they don't necessarily get to use the other half on another player. Even if they could, it's not making up the difference between Rudy and Capela. That's why the Jazz should demand a lot more than Capela+Collins and they will get more. Like I said, teams know this. Two nickels is not worth a dime in this league.
 
The reason I was confused with Collins is that I simply used him as a placeholder, I just think ATL is the most obvious destination. It didn't make sense to me why it was a downside that you had to trade him if Rudy was traded, but not if Don and Rudy were both traded. I suppose that trading/not trading Don affects the package you'd seek for Gobert, but I think you're going to get the worst value out of Gobert for seeking future facing assets because the only teams interested are less likely to have premium future assets. I don't really see it as a problem to trade a player like Collins again anyways. Is that a problem because our head decision maker is part time because he's too lazy? Really shouldn't be a problem and I also like the potential gains from building up youngish players like Collins versus taking distant first round picks from sure fire playoff teams. The expected value of having 3 future firsts from a Luka-Gobert Mavs team is probably like one rotation caliber player. That's just my opinion, but I know others see it the other way. For example, I hated the return the Rockets got for Harden....but to this day there are still a people whose opinion I respect that say the Rockets got away with robbery.

I also value the year of evaluation with Don+trade package no matter what kind of package that is. Trading Don is a pivotal decision, and I would rather see what we have before making that move. The downside of waiting means little compared to the information gathered. If wants to play here another year, I think he would welcome the addition of younger players and the idea that the team is building around his timeline. I don't think he's going to commit to this team, but also say we have to keep this creaky old roster around him. And like I said before, increasing the chances of Mitchell bouncing is not really a consideration I have. Him playing for the Jazz beyond the contract is not a consideration I'm making because it's so unlikely. I just think it's better to be patient with his trade rather than be in a rush to tank.

I can't dispute the fact that playing adds some degree of injury risk, but that's really not enough for me to say that Don has to be moved. If you're really that scared, you can SGA him or do the AD thing....but I would not let that fear get in the way of making the best decision. I think it's way more likely you get a better deal by waiting. Donovan can become a better player, and waiting for a better deal has proven beneficial in just about every situation where a big name player has been traded. If you commit to trading him this off-season, you're really limiting your options. If the situation comes up where Don demands that Rudy be traded immediately, for example, that is really bad for our expected return on Rudy. I wouldn't self inflict that detriment for Don as well.

As far as losing the top 5 pick this year....yeah that's valuable. But you also still have Donovan Mitchell as an asset and he's valuable. If you want to tank, there has to be a logical end to it all and it's the same regardless of when you start that process. You don't lose a year of tanking because you started it a year later. It's just delayed a year. I'm willing to give Don a year, overhauling most of the roster + Quin, and then reassessing the pieces from there. Hell, even if Don demands a trade after thinking about it in a week I wouldn't be in a rush to trade him this summer. At some point the Jazz are going to have to show some strength and play hard ball for once.
WTF man… you make it like I’m going to force a trade no matter what… if the offers aren’t good you don’t do it… why would they be better in a year? If you need to play him and wait that’s fine but that’s not the evaluation the front office is making… they are going to operate under the assumption they can keep him. And all the
moves will be made with the goal of “we gotta keep Donovan!” The info gathered this year means absolutely ****ing nothing if you are trading him in a year… which you say is likely the outcome!!! How useful is that info if he’s gone… we’ve gathered info for 5 years.

If you wait you actually start to force yourself into a corner because people know the clock is ticking… what if the offers aren’t good then? Wait until he has one more year… THATS TWO YEARS OF SUPER VALUABLE INFO!!!! Maybe we can trade that info for a top 5 pick!!!!

Trading the pieces like Collins later or Hierter or whoever… they might have more value… but generally selling off pieces nets less value when sold individually than a star. Hardens deal was bad because they slightly split the baby trying to be competitive… instead of taking more picks or younger players they took a broken Oladipo on an expiring… whoops.

There are plenty of other trades like the AD trade and the PG trade that included picks everyone assumed would be late firsts and both are in the lotto… folks assumed the Brooklyn picks would be late firsts and they became Brown and Tatum. Doesn’t always turn out that way but get 3
1sts and 2 pick swaps and the Dallas package might be okayish. We are assuming Atlanta and Charlotte have interest… what if they don’t have a ton of interest? What if it’s Capela and Collins and nothing else? Toronto giving us something good… we gonna trade him in conference?

Look I get the wait it out model if you think you can convince Don to stay 3-4 years… I get if you think waiting is okay too… which I think it is… but to think there isn’t some serious opportunity cost risk is unrealistic.

The 12 months of rumors and reports will be super fun as well… this team responds really well to that stuff. I just wouldn’t do it but to each their own.
 
It doesn't really work that way, and teams know this. I don't know what percent you think Capela is of Rudy, but the reality is that ATL is probably a top 5 defense with Rudy and a bottom 10 with Capela...Rudy is also a much better offensive player, That difference takes ATL out of the play in zone and puts them firmly in #1 seed territory. Even if Rudy gets paid double what Capela does, the likelihood of of you getting another $17-$18M player that makes up the difference between Capela and Gobert is extremely unlikely. For example, John Collins is a good player and $20M is probably a fair contract. But Rudy is going to win so man more games for you than those two combined. This, of course, is without mentioning that the cap isn't static, it's dynamic. If the Jazz replace Rudy with a player that costs half as less, they don't necessarily get to use the other half on another player. Even if they could, it's not making up the difference between Rudy and Capela. That's why the Jazz should demand a lot more than Capela+Collins and they will get more. Like I said, teams know this. Two nickels is not worth a dime in this league.
They also know that centers and players with huge contracts are harder to move and have more limited markets… so they could tell us to take a walk. We definitely won’t get Hunter…

If a Rudy trade happens we may be somewhat shocked at the return.
 
WTF man… you make it like I’m going to force a trade no matter what… if the offers aren’t good you don’t do it… why would they be better in a year? If you need to play him and wait that’s fine but that’s not the evaluation the front office is making… they are going to operate under the assumption they can keep him. And all the
moves will be made with the goal of “we gotta keep Donovan!” The info gathered this year means absolutely ****ing nothing if you are trading him in a year… which you say is likely the outcome!!! How useful is that info if he’s gone… we’ve gathered info for 5 years.

If you wait you actually start to force yourself into a corner because people know the clock is ticking… what if the offers aren’t good then? Wait until he has one more year… THATS TWO YEARS OF SUPER VALUABLE INFO!!!! Maybe we can trade that info for a top 5 pick!!!!

Trading the pieces like Collins later or Hierter or whoever… they might have more value… but generally selling off pieces nets less value when sold individually than a star. Hardens deal was bad because they slightly split the baby trying to be competitive… instead of taking more picks or younger players they took a broken Oladipo on an expiring… whoops.

There are plenty of other trades like the AD trade and the PG trade that included picks everyone assumed would be late firsts and both are in the lotto… folks assumed the Brooklyn picks would be late firsts and they became Brown and Tatum. Doesn’t always turn out that way but get 3
1sts and 2 pick swaps and the Dallas package might be okayish. We are assuming Atlanta and Charlotte have interest… what if they don’t have a ton of interest? What if it’s Capela and Collins and nothing else? Toronto giving us something good… we gonna trade him in conference?

Look I get the wait it out model if you think you can convince Don to stay 3-4 years… I get if you think waiting is okay too… which I think it is… but to think there isn’t some serious opportunity cost risk is unrealistic.

The 12 months of rumors and reports will be super fun as well… this team responds really well to that stuff. I just wouldn’t do it but to each their own.

I mean, am I wrong that you put a priority on tanking Donovan so we can tank? I don't see urgency in trading Don or urgency in tanking. I don't fear a drop in Don's value, and the tanking option is literally always present for every franchise at every point in their history. Why would his value go up? That's obvious and I've already stated this. Donovan could get better, or teams can fold the longer you wait and you receive a better offer.

The Rockets did not take a worse trade to stay competitive. If they wanted to remain completive, they would have taken Ben Simmons instead of Oladipo and a boat load of picks/pick swaps. They even went as far as to decline on taking Allen and Lavert so they could get more picks. I really don't know what to say here except that this assertion is hysterical. The Rockets had no hopes of staying competitive and obviously didn't have plans to be competitive anytime soon.

If no one wants Gobert, it doesn't really have any bearing on the Mitchell decision. I mentioned ATL package 1)because it's actually a realistic trade partner and 2) because I think they have assets to provide the best value. I didn't mention them because it keeps us semi competitive. I simply think you take the best package, and simply don't believe the picks package from DAL with Luka and Rudy locked up is a good package. Maybe that's the best you get, but again if that's all you get it doesn't really effect the Mitchell decision too much. If Rudy's trade value is low, that effects all trades in any direction.

As far as gathering information, obviously I'm talking about the assets and players we'd be acquiring and not the one's we'd be trading out. I really thought that was obvious. If you want trade for a good young player, you might want to know how that works out before you make the Donovan trade. I expect a complete overhaul no matter what, and I think it would be interesting to see Don play with a bunch of fresh faces. Do I think it will work out great? Probably not. I think the most likely scenario is that we're not that good and Don demands out anyways. I've never hid from this and have acknowledged this possibility several times over. But it's definitely worth a look. I mean....we just saw how this play out a few years ago. It was good that we didn't trade away Rudy right away because we lucked out with Mitchell. That lead to a golden championship window that we just happened to squander. If you hold onto Don and wait it out, you're not tied down to finding the next Donovan. You can always pivot to tanking, you cannot pivot back to having Donovan Mitchell on your team.

I just don't see the large opportunity cost in running with Don+new additions for a year. If we tank now versus in one year, I don't really see the difference except that we can plan on getting out of the tank one year later. Not a big deal to me, but I do understand the appeal of wanting the tanking team. It's very comfortable to be a die hard fan of a tanking team.
 
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If we tank now versus in one year, I don't really see the difference except that we can plan on getting out of the tank one year later. Not a big deal to me, but I do understand the appeal of wanting the tanking team. It's very comfortable to be a die hard fan of a tanking team.
We have our 2023 pick but not our 2024 pick.
 
They also know that centers and players with huge contracts are harder to move and have more limited markets… so they could tell us to take a walk. We definitely won’t get Hunter…

If a Rudy trade happens we may be somewhat shocked at the return.

It could be tough, but the general idea of 70% of the production for 50% of the cost isn't a real one. That's not how it plays out in reality and teams know this. No one is looking at JC and saying he's 60% of Mitchell but 40% of the cost. Trade value does not work that way.
 
We have our 2023 pick but not our 2024 pick.

2024 is protected 1-10. Waiting one year might actually be more beneficial because protections are going to be extinguished after 2026. If you're planning on being bad for 3 years consecutively, it's better to do so 2024-2026 than 2023-2025.
 
2024 is protected 1-10. Waiting one year might actually be more beneficial because protections are going to be extinguished after 2026. If you're planning on being bad for 3 years consecutively, it's better to do so 2024-2026 than 2023-2025.
You have made some really good points in your last few posts on this thread. Everybody should take the time to read them.

This has been a really good discussion from both sides really. I think most of us, mainly myself definitely included, need to set emotions aside and think of it like a business decision.



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