Is there a fundamental misunderstanding betwen Mormons and Muslims? help solving the puzzle!!

[Gameface]

The Bible never says it is inerrant? Maybe we aren't reading the same Bible.

2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is God-breathed..."

Psalm 12:6 "The words of The Lord are flawless"

Good luck with that.

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

Unpossible. One of them got to be right. So which one is it? Am I getting brand new virgins when I go to heaven? Or am I stuck with my own family? Am I going to be punished for eating pork? Or is God more concerned with my coffee habit? We must settle this quickly and conclusively for the sake of all of our souls.

Of all the bits of wisdom an all-wise, loving creator could share with his children for their benefit, prohibitions against eating pork or drinking coffee/tea are among the most useless. Neither product is harmful if consumed in moderate amounts and prepared correctly (mostly pork). Hell, if thousands of years ago God had bothered to tell humans to wash their hands after taking a dump or to boil their water before drinking it (or more generally sharing with prophets the basics of germ theory) it would have saved literally millions upon millions of lives. But instead he obsesses over food/drinks that have negligible to no harmful health effects.

I'm still waiting to hear about the first person who died from coffee or tea consumption.

Honestly, if this is the best kind of health advice God doles out, he's pretty useless, as far as Gods go.

 

[Deleted member 848]

Of all the bits of wisdom an all-wise, loving creator could share with his children for their benefit, prohibitions against eating pork or drinking coffee/tea are among the most useless. Neither product is harmful if consumed in moderate amounts and prepared correctly (mostly pork). Hell, if thousands of years ago God had bothered to tell humans to wash their hands after taking a dump or to boil their water before drinking it (or more generally sharing with prophets the basics of germ theory) it would have saved literally millions upon millions of lives. But instead he obsesses over food/drinks that have negligible to no harmful health effects.

I'm still waiting to hear about the first person who died from coffee or tea consumption.

Honestly, if this is the best kind of health advice God doles out, he's pretty useless, as far as Gods go.

Like many of the revelations given to the people of the Middle East by God via Muhammad, the disclosure of avoiding pork was contextual.

Look into the history of pork consumption of that era, and the health problems that it caused.


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[colton]

The Bible never says it is inerrant? Maybe we aren't reading the same Bible.

2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is God-breathed..."

Psalm 12:6 "The words of The Lord are flawless"

Correct. Neither one of those says the Bible is inerrant. For example if Psalm 12:6 meant the Bible was inerrant, then we would have no need of any scripture past Psalm 12:6. Or so it seems to me. So it clearly means something else.

 

[NAOS]

Oh snap! Hantlers is bringing the literal, Fundamentalist smack! Gonna make myself some tea and smoke a big joint for this....

 

[Hantlers]

Oh snap! Hantlers is bringing the literal, Fundamentalist smack! Gonna make myself some tea and smoke a big joint for this....

Isn't it interesting how so far Colton, Siro and I have done a pretty decent job on leaving personal insults out? Why can't you do the same? It's really not that difficult to act like an adult.

 

[Hantlers]

Correct. Neither one of those says the Bible is inerrant. For example if Psalm 12:6 meant the Bible was inerrant, then we would have no need of any scripture past Psalm 12:6. Or so it seems to me. So it clearly means something else.

What? I don't agree. All scripture, every word of it, is God-breathed. Those are God's words. God's words are flawless, perfect...that would be inerrant. I don't see why we wouldn't have need of the scripture after Psalms, Jesus hadn't come to save our sins yet...that was a pretty big deal in the Bible.

 

[NAOS]

Isn't it interesting how so far Colton, Siro and I have done a pretty decent job on leaving personal insults out? Why can't you do the same? It's really not that difficult to act like an adult.

...yep... I don't see any insults.

 

[fishonjazz]

Like many of the revelations given to the people of the Middle East by God via Muhammad, the disclosure of avoiding pork was contextual.

Look into the history of pork consumption of that era, and the health problems that it caused.


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He did bring up a good point about why didn't God tell people about other little things that could have saved lives. (Boiling water, washing hands, etc etc

 

[Stoked]

He did bring up a good point about why didn't God tell people about other little things that could have saved lives. (Boiling water, washing hands, etc etc

Wouldn't that call into question the existance of God more than the validity of any particular faith? On could point out many "why nots" with each individual religion.

 

[b_line]

Mormons believe in the Bible, which teaches that God is infallible. They believe the Bible is God's Word. They also believe that the Bible is not sufficient, that God made a mistake and had Joseph Smith write the BoM. It's a little contradictory.

What about the people living between the time of the old testament and new testament, or before the old testament was written? Was the bible sufficient for them? There are many different parts of the word of god, and claiming that the bible is the end all be all to religion is short sighted and against even what the bible says when it talks about coming in the mouth of two or three witnesses.

I get why Mormons feel the Bible has been corrupted.. makes sense, actually (although I personally have a different take).
However, I have a problem with the Jesus portion. If Jesus is who the Bible says He is and He did, for us, what the Bible says He did.. then why was the BoM needed to 'solve' the apostasy through a new set of ordinances, etc. Seems like that definitely suggests what Jesus did was less than entirely sufficient.

I think mormons can explain all the ordinances they do as mentioned in the bible. Baptism, sacraments, priesthood, marriage, baptism for the dead, all these things are at least vaguely mentioned in the bible. The problem with the bible is that there are as many interpretations to the bible as there are people on the earth. That is where the disagreements come in.

I thought Joseph Smith claimed that he was told that the modern-day church was an abomination. Fast forward to the need for a new book. And, yes, I absolutely believe there are 'new' rituals, ordinances, and teachings that are to be found nowhere other than within the LDS doctrine. I am always curious why all of these things were needed. Not hating, at all..

So, by this logic, all christians should be catholics in order to be right. However, most of the world will agree that the Catholics messed up in a lot of different places along the line, hence the need for different churches. Mormonism is just another form of reformation or restoration. In my mind, if you respect Wycliffe, Luther, Anglicans, Protestants, etc, then you should respect mormons as christians as well, and realize that we are all following christ.

Sorry it took me so long to get back to you. I usually post on my phone, and I didn't feel like typing an essay on my phone. First off, I'd like to say I'm grateful for your respectful replies. Hopefully I can respond in the same way, if not, call me out on it. I don't want this to be an argument, but rather just a discussing of different ideas/beliefs. There's nothing edifying about being disrespectful.

Now I know/realize the Bible is different books/letters written by different authors, but I should explain what I meant by inspired. I didn't mean like, 'Rachel Ray inspired me to try this new recipe!'…it's more of a divine inspiration, where God gave them the words to speak/write. I hope that makes sense, and I can understand why non-believers would find it crazy, but lets be honest, of all the things about Christianity, this is one of the least ludicrous. I'll never claim that Christianity is without it's crazy claims, but that's where the faith comes in.

As for America's needing a different book because they're in a different area…I would have to respectfully disagree. The Bible is written to two types of people, Jews and Gentiles. As we all probably know, that would include everybody. Personally, I just don't see the reason for needing a different book just because people are in a different area. The gospel message doesn't change based on where you live, it is a constant, the only constant really. That's why I feel like there is nothing more that needs to be said than the Bible already does, which is why I feel like the addition of the BoM is basically saying that the Bible was not sufficient.

In my mind, this logic would say that the New Testament is a farce, and that we don't need it. As I said above, any testament of Christ is good, and if it is from a prophet of god, should be regarded as scripture. If I am being honest with myself about being a disciple of Christ, I find the Old Testament tiresome, I have read the New Testament a bunch, The Book of Mormon as well, and frankly, I get bored when I read the same old scriptures. New editions are welcome, and should be accepted by Christians. The method for accepting them in your life as scripture is the same as it has always been; does it inspire you? Did you pray apply the teachings in your life to see good or improvement? And have you asked God in sincerity of heart if they are true?

I would respond with PKM's question as well. Because if true, then isn't Smith saying that the religion based on the Bible (Christianity), was false? I also have problems with several prophesies directly contradicting the Bible.

Response to the first: "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away" Luke 21:33. That's the most common interpretation. Another one is, "Heaven and earth will disappear, but my words shall never disappear" (NLT) is another one. How about Isaiah 40:8, "The grass withers, the flowers fade, but the word of our God will stand forever." Except ya know, for those thousand years or so, they won't stay for those years. Do you really think a sovereign God would allow the Bible to remain incomplete for over a thousand years (or whatever timeframe it was) before revealing it to His people? I just cannot believe that.


For the second, let me again refer to several verses.

Deuteronomy 18:20-22 "But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.’ And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the Lord has not spoken?’— when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him."

Numbers 23:19 "God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?"

God does not lie, He does not change. All true prophecy comes from Him, therefore any prophecy that does not come true, cannot come from Him, making that prophet a false prophet.

"I prophecy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left for their wickedness in permitting the murder of men, women and children, and the wholesale plunder and extermination of thousands of her citizens to go unpunished (History of the Church, Vol. 5, page 394)."

That prophecy was made by Joseph Smith in 1843. The US Gov't did not redress those wrongs, nor did they get overthrown. I think it's safe to say that a few years have passed by now. Smith prophecies in the name of the Lord here…so was God wrong, or was Smith a false prophet?

"Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, September 22 and 23, 1832. HC 1:286-295.

1. A revelation of Jesus Christ unto his servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and six elders, as they united their hearts and lifted their voices on high.

2. Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.

3. Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.

4. Verily, this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.

5. For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house."

Safe to say that Joseph Smith, nor anybody from his generation build that temple in Missouri, as they were kicked out. Again, false prophecy.

I also have problems with how African-American members were first not allowed to become priests (because of prophecy), and then were allowed to become priests (because of prophecy). Does the Bible anywhere state that color of skin has anything to do with becoming an elder or deacon or priest? Does the Bible anywhere state that the color of skin has anything to do with discipling somebody? Does the Bible not state that God does not lie, and does not change His mind? How then can we believe that the flip-flopping of this prophecy is from God?

In summary, based on what the LDS church teaches and believes, God allowed His people to be abandoned of His true Word, He changed his mind, and lied, and allowed the commission of a prophet who has had multiple false prophecies. I cannot, and will not believe that to be true, because it contradicts the Bible.

Lots of Mormons have problems with some things Joseph Smith taught. The things that Mormons accept as scripture are generally not the obscure documents found in the history of the church. LDS scripture as generally accepted includes the New and Old Testaments, the Book of Mormon, The Doctrine and Covenants (revelations from smith, Brigham Young, and a few other modern prophets) and The Pearl of Great Price (a translation of what was supposedly the book of Abraham, although it is widely disputed whether or not this is real or some story Joseph Smith wrote).

As far as black people and the priesthood goes, this is one of the biggest hangups that LDS people have. At least, in my circle of friends, it is. I personally have a huge problem with it. I have thought many times of leaving the church because of it. In fact, the church basically came out and blamed it on Brigham Young being a product of a racially charged time in the history of the world. However, if we look at the history of prophets in the bible and other records, we find that the word of God is indeed infallible, but prophets themselves are not. Noah was a mess, getting drunk and disobeying the Lord for a while, and then sleeping with his son's wife. Jonah ran away and almost got a bunch of people killed in a huge storm because of his stubbornness. I am sure if we had a better record of ancient prophets, we would see tons more examples of a bunch of weird dudes who somehow had a great connection with God. That is just they way humanity works.

Sorry this post is so long. Just thought there were a bunch of interesting things in this thread.

Carry on.

 

[fishonjazz]

Wouldn't that call into question the existance of God more than the validity of any particular faith? On could point out many "why nots" with each individual religion.

I just think it would have been nice of God to give the dudes who wrote the bible some good info on things that would help increase the quality if life.
Plumbing, electricity, vaccines, etc. Stuff like that would have been appreciated by the people I think.

 

[Stoked]

I just think it would have been nice of God to give the dudes who wrote the bible some good info on things that would help increase the quality if life.
Plumbing, electricity, vaccines, etc. Stuff like that would have been appreciated by the people I think.

lol I agree. Your answer, by refrencing the bible, reinforces my point.

 

[b_line]

Dont know how I just posted like a whole page of the same stuff...

Also, forgot to mention the post about God not telling people about washing their hands. This is awesome. Religion can be great, but if taken too literal, it can be a huge downfall in our society.

Another example of the cruel irony of religion is that people end up arguing about which prophet said what, and what it means, and then other people go to war to kill those who don't believe the same way they do (christians and muslims), when the most important thing that Jesus said was love one another and love god.

 

[Stoked]

Dont know how I just posted like a whole page of the same stuff...

Also, forgot to mention the post about God not telling people about washing their hands. This is awesome. Religion can be great, but if taken too literal, it can be a huge downfall in our society.

Another example of the cruel irony of religion is that people end up arguing about which prophet said what, and what it means, and then other people go to war to kill those who don't believe the same way they do (christians and muslims), when the most important thing that Jesus said was love one another and love god.

I agree. And the hate that often accompanies these debates is absurd and very unfaith like.

However, I'd like to point out that loving the person does not mean accepting all they say or do. They are not one and the same.

 

[gothapotamus]

Here are some interesting reads on this topic...

I think these are some thoughtful pieces that are worth the read on this topic.

Islam and Mormonism—A Comparison
https://www.lds.org/ensign/1972/03/islam-and-mormonism-a-comparison?lang=eng


Are Mormons the Bridge Between the Christian and Muslim Faiths?
https://www.nephiproject.com/Newsletter/NP Newsle[1].%20Oct%20%28Final%29.pdf

 

[Hantlers]

What about the people living between the time of the old testament and new testament, or before the old testament was written? Was the bible sufficient for them? There are many different parts of the word of god, and claiming that the bible is the end all be all to religion is short sighted and against even what the bible says when it talks about coming in the mouth of two or three witnesses.



I think mormons can explain all the ordinances they do as mentioned in the bible. Baptism, sacraments, priesthood, marriage, baptism for the dead, all these things are at least vaguely mentioned in the bible. The problem with the bible is that there are as many interpretations to the bible as there are people on the earth. That is where the disagreements come in.


So, by this logic, all christians should be catholics in order to be right. However, most of the world will agree that the Catholics messed up in a lot of different places along the line, hence the need for different churches. Mormonism is just another form of reformation or restoration. In my mind, if you respect Wycliffe, Luther, Anglicans, Protestants, etc, then you should respect mormons as christians as well, and realize that we are all following christ.



In my mind, this logic would say that the New Testament is a farce, and that we don't need it. As I said above, any testament of Christ is good, and if it is from a prophet of god, should be regarded as scripture. If I am being honest with myself about being a disciple of Christ, I find the Old Testament tiresome, I have read the New Testament a bunch, The Book of Mormon as well, and frankly, I get bored when I read the same old scriptures. New editions are welcome, and should be accepted by Christians. The method for accepting them in your life as scripture is the same as it has always been; does it inspire you? Did you pray apply the teachings in your life to see good or improvement? And have you asked God in sincerity of heart if they are true?






Lots of Mormons have problems with some things Joseph Smith taught. The things that Mormons accept as scripture are generally not the obscure documents found in the history of the church. LDS scripture as generally accepted includes the New and Old Testaments, the Book of Mormon, The Doctrine and Covenants (revelations from smith, Brigham Young, and a few other modern prophets) and The Pearl of Great Price (a translation of what was supposedly the book of Abraham, although it is widely disputed whether or not this is real or some story Joseph Smith wrote).

As far as black people and the priesthood goes, this is one of the biggest hangups that LDS people have. At least, in my circle of friends, it is. I personally have a huge problem with it. I have thought many times of leaving the church because of it. In fact, the church basically came out and blamed it on Brigham Young being a product of a racially charged time in the history of the world. However, if we look at the history of prophets in the bible and other records, we find that the word of God is indeed infallible, but prophets themselves are not. Noah was a mess, getting drunk and disobeying the Lord for a while, and then sleeping with his son's wife. Jonah ran away and almost got a bunch of people killed in a huge storm because of his stubbornness. I am sure if we had a better record of ancient prophets, we would see tons more examples of a bunch of weird dudes who somehow had a great connection with God. That is just they way humanity works.

Sorry this post is so long. Just thought there were a bunch of interesting things in this thread.

Carry on.

Really good post. Thanks!

I'd just like to add that while prophets, like all other humans, were/are sinful, their words and stories were divinely inspired and infallible. And that any man who had even one prophecy, even one bit of his words or stories not come true, then he is a false prophet. God's edicts are always true, but often we choose not to follow them.

 

[b_line]

Really good post. Thanks!

I'd just like to add that while prophets, like all other humans, were/are sinful, their words and stories were divinely inspired and infallible. And that any man who had even one prophecy, even one bit of his words or stories not come true, then he is a false prophet. God's edicts are always true, but often we choose not to follow them.

Agree with the bolded part. Not sure how I feel about the second part, and my reasoning is that sometimes circumstances change. Like what if a person has a change of heart, and then a prophecy has a different outcome? Personal choice has some role to play in God's doings.

Thanks for the discussion in this thread. It could have turned out to be a giant mess, but is actually an interesting read.

 

[Siro]

Yeah, you should look at the arc of how the creation of a religion has been utilized by different rulers to suit their best interests, and investigate how the arc of Islamic history has culminated in the widespread adoption and advocacy of only one style of interpretation of faith (that of course has no superiority over any other interpretation of the Islamic religion).

Of course we are where we are because of how history unfolded. How else can it be? And while my comment was in jest, I fully believe in the essence of it. I'm not a believer, and to me Islam is just another ideology in the endless ocean of human ideologies. And it is an ideology that the world would be much better without. That obviously applies to many other ideologies, but I tend to bring up Islam because it touches the lives of many of the people I personally know. Muslims of the Muslim world are the ones who really pay the price Islam demands. The religion has obliterated Middle Eastern intellectual culture, and there are virtually no worthwhile Muslim thinkers as far as the rest of humanity is concerned. The philosophical discourse within the Muslim world is over nonsense like whether it is permissible for women to drive or go to school. That bothers me more than all the violence and bloodshed, because it tells me that these things are here to stay.

I'm just not seeing a path to the modernization that Islam desperately needs. The sad fact is that Islam acts as a serious barrier to progress wherever it's present. Even in more modern places like Turkey, it is hard to argue that Islam adds up to a net positive. How can you blame me for being resentful when I don't see a way forward for the culture that I come from?

 

[b_line]

^^ Similar things were said about Confucian principles in China around 900-1000 CE. China basically had the beginnings of an industrial revolution, only to fall back and be scared into traditional thought because of the confucian principles. Can you imagine how different the world would have been now if the East had been the part of the world to industrialize first?

This is the problem with religion. How do you separate the cultural element from religion? In a mormon context, the religion has created a hard working, family centered people, but it has also had the effect of alienating those who are not of the same faith in Utah. It would be a terrible thing to get rid of religion on a wholesale level, because of the good it supplies, but taking the bad out if it is the challenge we face as a species in the future.