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Jazz and Knicks discussing Donovan Mitchell trade per Shams Charania and Tony Jones

KqWIN said:
I think the NBA is fine financially. I've always said that the TV viewership doesn't matter as much as people make it out to be when it comes to the league's overall health. The NBA will learn how to better monetize the internet traffic that they dominate, and entering the streaming wars will be a win for them no matter what. But what the TV viewership does tell you is how much people enjoy the games, and I to me the day to day product of the NBA has really fallen off a cliff. The problem with championship or bust is exactly what it says. If it's not the championship, it doesn't matter. The 82 game regular season hardly matters at all when it comes to the championship conversation, and it's an open thing now. Franchises don't seem to care, the players don't care, and I don't think hardcore fans care much either. It's all about the end goal, the championship. The regular season games don't have much consequence to the championship conversation. In fact, it's become the accepted opinion that emphasizing the regular season comes at a detriment to title hopes. Regular season play has continued to diverge from playoff basketball and it won't stop.

It's all relative of course. People do care about a random regular season game and everyone wants to win, but compared to other sports, the importance of each game is so diminished and it doesn't necessarily make the actual championship more exciting. The large discrepancy between the RS and Playoffs makes for a more boring conclusion IMO.
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Outside of football I don’t think there is a sport that has a super meaningful regular season. Unless they reduce games not sure how you change things much. I don’t think the offseason or transaction stuff has hurt the game’s popularity… I think for some it’s annoying with all the trade chatter and draft projections etc. I just think it’s an off shoot and the games are as important as they have ever been. Some load management aside… even that has a great place because if teams are healthy when it matters most it makes the final stage of the product better.

I also think there are a ton of teams that don’t subscribe to championship or bust and they are some of the more boring franchises in the league. Like who’s excited for the Blazers and Wiz this year??? My personal belief is you build towards a title but if it doesn’t look promising you don’t have to scrap it… if you only get a second round team or conference finals team that’s fine… but if it peaks and starts to decline and you don’t have ways to improve it… then scrap it and rebuild… again hoping to have a title team. If you aren’t making progress there will be dissatisfaction among players, fans, etc.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Outside of football I don’t think there is a sport that has a super meaningful regular season. Unless they reduce games not sure how you change things much. I don’t think the offseason or transaction stuff has hurt the game’s popularity… I think for some it’s annoying with all the trade chatter and draft projections etc. I just think it’s an off shoot and the games are as important as they have ever been. Some load management aside… even that has a great place because if teams are healthy when it matters most it makes the final stage of the product better.

I also think there are a ton of teams that don’t subscribe to championship or bust and they are some of the more boring franchises in the league. Like who’s excited for the Blazers and Wiz this year??? My personal belief is you build towards a title but if it doesn’t look promising you don’t have to scrap it… if you only get a second round team or conference finals team that’s fine… but if it peaks and starts to decline and you don’t have ways to improve it… then scrap it and rebuild… again hoping to have a title team. If you aren’t making progress there will be dissatisfaction among players, fans, etc.
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European Football has by far the best system in place. The majority of the games they play, pretty much all the games outside of friendlies, have major implications. But we don't have to open up that rabbit hole.

I think this second part is exactly what I'm saying. Why are the Blazer/Wizards boring? Because it's championship or bust. Nothing else matters. Winning 40 games is meaningless and the worst place you can be, but only if the championship is the only thing that matters. Winning 40 games is infinitely more exciting than winning 20 games if the games mattered, but they don't. We're at a place right now in the NBA where winning in the regular season is pointless for pretty much every team in the NBA. Teams that can actually compete for the title are good enough that they can half *** it and still make it to the playoffs. If you're a team that's in a playoff race or below, you don't matter either because you can't win the title. If you're a tanking team, you have the "idea" of building towards being a title team, but winning is also useless and directly detrimental to the cause. The entire regular season is basically a preseason for the real season, the playoffs. The teams tell you this, the players tell you this, and the media will also tell you this. In an ideal world, winning 40 games would mean something because those games mattered. But we're so far gone in the NBA, the illusion that may have existed before is gone and I think that's a shame. If you're not deep into NBA circles, it would seem bizarre sucking for 3+ years on purpose is a good thing, but because the day to day product means so little compared to the big picture that is the way things are.

It goes beyond just the wins and losses too. It crushes any kind of story line or excitement that's not championship related. I feel like a lot of stories/players get lost because they simply aren't in the championship conversation or part of some drama cycle. I feel like in other sports there is a greater appreciation and enjoyment for how players play and there's less emphasis on whether or not it's sustainable in a championship run. People enjoy the sport and the connection to the city they play for. Like, I think in a different sport people would appreciate Dame and Beal because they are great players (who have also been loyal) more than they would enjoy watching someone like Poku jack up a million shots, but that's just not how the NBA works. The way we view the game in general is just so different. I do statistics for a living, and I love to do this myself, but I also can't deny that it is incredibly lame to talk about things like shooting variance and luck after every game. But that's how we do things now. The W/L does not matter more than how the game fits into the bigger picture.

I don't know if you've attended a RSL game recently, and this is pure personal opinion, but the gameday experience is 100x better than an NBA game. It feels like the game matters. It's important to win that night, even if it's just for pride. Maybe that pride and excitement to win will eventually fade out. We're already seeing it creep into other sports, I think the NBA is just "ahead" of these other leagues because rebuilds can happen so dramatically due to the nature of the sport. A "fix" is difficult and some people will say there is nothing to fix at all, but I do think the league has changed for the worse. I still love the NBA, but damn I miss watching games everyday and feeling like the outcome mattered. In the current NBA, the bigger picture and drama comes first....the sport of basketball comes last. I think it's ****ing awesome that Knicks fans storm the streets when they break .500, but that kind of excitement is very rare in the NBA. I wish we had more of that than the big picture and drama stuff.
 
KqWIN said:
European Football has by far the best system in place. The majority of the games they play, pretty much all the games outside of friendlies, have major implications. But we don't have to open up that rabbit hole.

I think this second part is exactly what I'm saying. Why are the Blazer/Wizards boring? Because it's championship or bust. Nothing else matters. Winning 40 games is meaningless and the worst place you can be, but only if the championship is the only thing that matters. Winning 40 games is infinitely more exciting than winning 20 games if the games mattered, but they don't. We're at a place right now in the NBA where winning in the regular season is pointless for pretty much every team in the NBA. Teams that can actually compete for the title are good enough that they can half *** it and still make it to the playoffs. If you're a team that's in a playoff race or below, you don't matter either because you can't win the title. If you're a tanking team, you have the "idea" of building towards being a title team, but winning is also useless and directly detrimental to the cause. The entire regular season is basically a preseason for the real season, the playoffs. The teams tell you this, the players tell you this, and the media will also tell you this. In an ideal world, winning 40 games would mean something because those games mattered. But we're so far gone in the NBA, the illusion that may have existed before is gone and I think that's a shame. If you're not deep into NBA circles, it would seem bizarre sucking for 3+ years on purpose is a good thing, but because the day to day product means so little compared to the big picture that is the way things are.

It goes beyond just the wins and losses too. It crushes any kind of story line or excitement that's not championship related. I feel like a lot of stories/players get lost because they simply aren't in the championship conversation or part of some drama cycle. I feel like in other sports there is a greater appreciation and enjoyment for how players play and there's less emphasis on whether or not it's sustainable in a championship run. People enjoy the sport and the connection to the city they play for. Like, I think in a different sport people would appreciate Dame and Beal because they are great players (who have also been loyal) more than they would enjoy watching someone like Poku jack up a million shots, but that's just not how the NBA works. The way we view the game in general is just so different. I do statistics for a living, and I love to do this myself, but I also can't deny that it is incredibly lame to talk about things like shooting variance and luck after every game. But that's how we do things now. The W/L does not matter more than how the game fits into the bigger picture.

I don't know if you've attended a RSL game recently, and this is pure personal opinion, but the gameday experience is 100x better than an NBA game. It feels like the game matters. It's important to win that night, even if it's just for pride. Maybe that pride and excitement to win will eventually fade out. We're already seeing it creep into other sports, I think the NBA is just "ahead" of these other leagues because rebuilds can happen so dramatically due to the nature of the sport. A "fix" is difficult and some people will say there is nothing to fix at all, but I do think the league has changed for the worse. I still love the NBA, but damn I miss watching games everyday and feeling like the outcome mattered. In the current NBA, the bigger picture and drama comes first....the sport of basketball comes last. I think it's ****ing awesome that Knicks fans storm the streets when they break .500, but that kind of excitement is very rare in the NBA. I wish we had more of that than the big picture and drama stuff.
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The best way to fix this would be to reduce the number of playoff spots to like 4 per conference. Then the regular season has a hell of a lot of meaning. That will never happen, but it would fix it.
 
Nate505 said:
The best way to fix this would be to reduce the number of playoff spots to like 4 per conference. Then the regular season has a hell of a lot of meaning. That will never happen, but it would fix it.
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It wouldn't fix everything, but it'd be a good start. Right now, the NBA plays 1230 games in order to eliminate 10 out of 30 teams. That is so insanely inefficient.

I myself would love to see the NBA play one season of just pure league basketball. All teams play each other home and away, the team with the most wins is the champion. If by some miracle, two teams have the same amount of wins, you do tie-breakers.
 
JimLes said:
It wouldn't fix everything, but it'd be a good start. Right now, the NBA plays 1230 games in order to eliminate 10 out of 30 teams. That is so insanely inefficient.

I myself would love to see the NBA play one season of just pure league basketball. All teams play each other home and away, the team with the most wins is the champion. If by some miracle, two teams have the same amount of wins, you do tie-breakers.
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Yeah, having no post season would mean the regular season is super meaningful.

In general, there are three ways to improve the regular season for a sport:

1) No postseason, like most soccer leagues do. Granted, there are things like the Champions league which is like a post-season, but the major club leagues in Europe don't have a post-season...just relegation/promotion.

2) Fewer spots in the postseason. College football has an intense regular season because out of 120 teams, only 4 go to the post season. In reality, it's more like 60 or whatever teams since even undefeated teams in minor conferences really don't have a shot to make the playoff, but still, that's a pretty small percentage. Conversely, once a team loses twice their season is pretty much over other than some Who Gives A **** Corporate Bowl Sponsored Game.

3) Fewer games in the regular season. The NFL is an example of this, where the regular season is pretty great even though about 44% of its teams go to the post-season. My favorite example though is the World Cup Finals. There, in the Group stage half the teams advance, yet they only play 3 games, so each game is about as intense as it gets.

The NBA is about the worst of all possible worlds. 82 ****ing games so over 50% of the teams go to a best 4/7 for four rounds.
 

Nate505 said:
Yeah, having no post season would mean the regular season is super meaningful.

In general, there are three ways to improve the regular season for a sport:

1) No postseason, like most soccer leagues do. Granted, there are things like the Champions league which is like a post-season, but the major club leagues in Europe don't have a post-season...just relegation/promotion.

2) Fewer spots in the postseason. College football has an intense regular season because out of 120 teams, only 4 go to the post season. In reality, it's more like 60 or whatever teams since even undefeated teams in minor conferences really don't have a shot to make the playoff, but still, that's a pretty small percentage. Conversely, once a team loses twice their season is pretty much over other than some Who Gives A **** Corporate Bowl Sponsored Game.

3) Fewer games in the regular season. The NFL is an example of this, where the regular season is pretty great even though about 44% of its teams go to the post-season. My favorite example though is the World Cup Finals. There, in the Group stage half the teams advance, yet they only play 3 games, so each game is about as intense as it gets.

The NBA is about the worst of all possible worlds. 82 ****ing games so over 50% of the teams go to a best 4/7 for four rounds.
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They could also just treat the regular season as if it matters more. A lot of this is media influenced where the only thing that matters is rings.

To me the regular season means a lot. I had a lot of fun watching the 2020-2021 Jazz. It sucks they blew it at the end, but it doesn't erase the fact that it was a great team to watch to me
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
They could also just treat the regular season as if it matters more. A lot of this is media influenced where the only thing that matters is rings.

To me the regular season means a lot. I had a lot of fun watching the 2020-2021 Jazz. It sucks they blew it at the end, but it doesn't erase the fact that it was a great team to watch to me
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I bet you watch porn for the plots.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
They could also just treat the regular season as if it matters more. A lot of this is media influenced where the only thing that matters is rings.

To me the regular season means a lot. I had a lot of fun watching the 2020-2021 Jazz. It sucks they blew it at the end, but it doesn't erase the fact that it was a great team to watch to me
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Very much this. I will likely watch a lot this year and enjoy it for different reasons. Watching players grow… seeing how the team plays style wise… if you don’t enjoy the regular season then it might just be you don’t love basketball. 82 games is a lot and so sometimes it gets stale for sure but as a whole I enjoy regular season a lot.
 
82 games is an abstraction that does not allow for a very many meaningful games. Not for the players, nor the fans.

Players play, but fewer games over the same period of time would make it far more interesting for them. It would also reduce the number of injuries.

At 30 teams, two games with each team still provides for plenty of income potential at 60 games. It also raises the stakes for every game.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Very much this. I will likely watch a lot this year and enjoy it for different reasons. Watching players grow… seeing how the team plays style wise… if you don’t enjoy the regular season then it might just be you don’t love basketball. 82 games is a lot and so sometimes it gets stale for sure but as a whole I enjoy regular season a lot.
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82 games is fine. It’s the “lol there are 82 games, they’ll be fine” when you’re seeing repetition of fatal problems and mentalities over those 82 games that’s the problem.

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Engorged On Unborn Gore said:
82 games is an abstraction that does not allow for a very many meaningful games. Not for the players, nor the fans.

Players play, but fewer games over the same period of time would make it far more interesting for them. It would also reduce the number of injuries.

At 30 teams, two games with each team still provides for plenty of income potential at 60 games. It also raises the stakes for every game.
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It also decreases revenue by 20%-25%. It also makes career records from previous eras impossible to break.

If they can just shave off like 4 or 5 games to eliminate back to backs then that is probably a better equilibrium.
 
infection said:
82 games is fine. It’s the “lol there are 82 games, they’ll be fine” when you’re seeing repetition of fatal problems and mentalities over those 82 games that’s the problem.

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I’m old enough to remember when all the talk was the experimenting we’d do during the regular season in preparation for the playoffs. We got a lab filled with unused Bunsen Burners if anyone is interested.
 
NUMBERICA said:
It also decreases revenue by 20%-25%. It also makes career records from previous eras impossible to break.

If they can just shave off like 4 or 5 games to eliminate back to backs then that is probably a better equilibrium.
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I’d say with the play in about 90-95% of the games have some postseason relevance. There will always be like 5 super ****** teams… some on purpose some on accident and some because of injury.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
I’m old enough to remember when all the talk was the experimenting we’d do during the regular season in preparation for the playoffs. We got a lab filled with unused Bunsen Burners if anyone is interested.
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It was actually a big miscommunication that was completely avoidable. The last thing DL did was order Bunsen burners that would have us ready for April, but he was in a hurry to get out of the office and the guy on the other end of the line heard “a Brunson burner” to be delivered in April. DL didn’t hang around to get a double check on the order.
 
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