Jazzbros: "I Hope I am Wrong"
- Thread starter Borat
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DRIVEWAYBALL
New Member
I think the Hayward pick has already been written off as another Jazz draft disaster by most fans. Unlike some past selections, like Snyder and Humphries, where fans held out some hope until the guys actually started playing, I think fans are already resigned to this situation.
InGameStrategy
Well-Known Member
I don't think that Hayward will be a disaster. I just think that there were players who had more upside and met a need better. We'll see what happens to Paul George and Ed Davis (and maybe Cole Aldrich).
What would be awesome is if Evans turns into something (poor man's Millsap, with defense?), helping to justify the Jazz's decision to go little in the first round.
Oh--and as long as "passing" is a characteristic that is not used to mask other deficiencies, I'm all for it. Brewer was usually a slasher anyway, so he wasn't in a position to pass (partly because he wasn't usually in a position to shoot the ball, because his shooting wasn't great), but he didn't pass, even though he was a PG in college. Here's hoping Haley Joel does. AK is an OK passer, and it helps things. CJ doesn't usually think of any other option but Catch and Jack it up.
What would be awesome is if Evans turns into something (poor man's Millsap, with defense?), helping to justify the Jazz's decision to go little in the first round.
Oh--and as long as "passing" is a characteristic that is not used to mask other deficiencies, I'm all for it. Brewer was usually a slasher anyway, so he wasn't in a position to pass (partly because he wasn't usually in a position to shoot the ball, because his shooting wasn't great), but he didn't pass, even though he was a PG in college. Here's hoping Haley Joel does. AK is an OK passer, and it helps things. CJ doesn't usually think of any other option but Catch and Jack it up.
I know, it's not "in" to be CJ apologist right now, but that is completely false. He usually looks to pass first when he runs a pick and roll or gets into the lane.
You have something better to discuss?
When we see what happens to these, keep in mind we could have only drafted 1 of these, not all 3. As far as Paul George, to me 42% shooting as a PF at College level is simply not good enough to warrant a lottery selection. Maybe end of first round, at best. I generally think, after 20 years of age, you really have to be a big difference maker at College level to have a decent chance at NBA. Only best of the best make it to NBA from NCAA, and after 20 you are really playing against guys who are younger than you. So, if you were unable to dominate as a 21+ year old in NCAA, I just think it's a long shot to succeed in NBA. Davis is 21 and he had a solid year, but far from dominant. His team sucked, went unranked, and he wasn't even the best player there. I think he a solid prospect, but Hayward was actually able to lead his team to a title game. And even in freshman year he got Butler to national rankings. He also was the best player for under 19 team and won championship there. At 20 he accomplished a lot more than Davis at 21. While no one knows how these guys will turn out, smart money is on Hayward among the guys you mentioned against any one of them.
billyshelby
Well-Known Member
OK? AK is one of the top passing big men in the league. He's a lot more than OK. As for Hayward, I'm holding strong that his intangibles game will translate, but his rep as a great passer doesn't make a ton of sense to me. 1.7 assists in 33 minutes a game does not scream great passer. And in the tourney, he logged 4 assists in Game 1, 1 in game 2, and then only 1 over the next 4. 6 in 6 games. Small sample, but not far off his regular season totals.
Being an athletic is grossly overrated (see Gerald Green or Joe Alexander)... Hayward has been scouted as a decent defender, ball handler, & rebounder all of which Morrison wasn't. Believe me, I'm one who wanted to let Korver walk & sign Morrison this summer if we hadn't drafted Hayward but I do think this was a good pick. We just hyped this lottery too much because of this hope of drafting in the top 3. Knowing our roster, we're just a perimeter stopper (Barnes, Udoka, Tony Allen) & paint clogger (Haywood, Chandler).
DWill / Price
Matthews / Udoka-Barnes-Allen
CJ / Hayward
Millsap / AK
Chandler-Haywood / Memo
DWill / Price
Matthews / Udoka-Barnes-Allen
CJ / Hayward
Millsap / AK
Chandler-Haywood / Memo
I would certainly rather have Xavier Henry and I'd feel better about Paul George right now (I know he's inconsistent and his percentages as a whole were poor, but he has shown immense scoring ability to go along with a very nice physical profile for offense or defense [whether those turn into anything or not]). I am not exaggerating when I said "anyone but Hayward".
I'm dying to be proven wrong, but I just don't see Hayward in any scenario being anything other than a liability on defense. Especially if he ever has a significant knee injury. I see Hayward as a Korver-esque defender (savvy but just doesn't have the tools to handle isos or speed from an opponent in general).
I would've picked the **** out of Cole Aldrich. The idiots that whined about him just because he was white and bared some resemblance to Ostertag are going to feel retarded when this kid registers 3 BPG against the Jazz over the span of his career.
I think you see what I'm getting at, but Hayward's numbers were on par with or better than both of those guys and Hayward tested out as a very good athlete...except for the alligator arms. Also, you don't find it a bit ironic that you would have picked Aldrich even though he is white when deep down you know a big reason you don't like the Hayward pick is because he is white?
His being white is only something that multiplies what are between pedestrian (his vertical) and terrible (lateral footspeed, wingspan) physical attributes. White wings don't have a great tradition over the last 10 years (with Mike Miller and Dunleavy being the only white american wings to do anything more than shoot and flop). Babbitt not having won at Nevada would've been a concern, but his physical attributes were elite and I think you can teach someone to win easier than you can teach length, innate strength, or innate speed/dexterity.
I would've picked Babbitt over Hayward 9 times out of 10. I would've picked Aldrich over Hayward 1,000 times out of 1,000.
I wouldnt say top, I would say he is one of the more creative passers. He often turns it over though.
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
You do realize, of course, that half of AK's passes are actually shots - either missing the backboard so badly the scorers don't count the attempt, or the ball flies out of his hands on a drive to the hoop. You know, his signature (or should I say, ONLY) move: he puts his head down, dribbles wildly toawrds the hoop, then flails his arms in the air and hopes the ref calls a foul.
Seriously, AK is a decent passer. But he's a terrible shooter and below-average defender. Yes, you heard me correctly. He can jump passing lanes and get a couple of steals per game. He can leave his man and get 1-2 blocks from the weakside. But put him man-up and he gets beaten way too easily. He's either pushed aside by stronger players or he bites on the fake and SF's take a step-back jumper. AK will never be that 5x5 player we remember. He's no longer as quick. He's fragile.
As for Hayward, I don't care if he's a great passer. He's not a PG. He'll score off curls and he has the ability to fake and then drive around a defender. All CJ, Matthews and Hayward need to do is run the offense and not force shots. They'll get enough open looks.
And just to be fair and accurate, the one thing Hayward brings to the table to the Jazz is BALL-HANDLING. No one can convince me that running plays through AK with any sort of regularity is a good idea since his idea of creating is a kamikaze into the lane, dribbling out of control, with arms flailing. AK is a superb passer, but more in the vein of Brewer where they're an angle in the passing game, not an actual starting point of a play.
Jazz4ever
Well-Known Member
You finally realized it? This was indeed the reason Hayward was taken over Luke Babbitt, George, and Henry. He has a good enough handle to be the backup PG imo, something the Jazz waste countless effort and money on every year. Its the same reason Evan Turner was drafted so high despite his alligator arms and average athleticism, he has PG skills.
I wish, but unfortunately only rumors are the only other thing out there to discuss, and we all know that Rumors and the Jazz usually mean nothing, so at this time of year we get Draft Pick #1 and Draft Pick #2.
Truthfully I was making fun of whomever keeps posting Honzward Thread #*** of ***. I thought it was kind of funny.
theNBAnerd
Well-Known Member
fair criticisms, but in any case i think you're overlooking the big picture to focus on the minutia. yes, 5" difference in leaping ability is marginally substantial, but as someone else pointed out, vertical jumping does not equal athleticism. in a general sense, hayward is an average athlete, which is why all of the sites i looked at when making the comparison called him out for that. they specifically referenced his footspeed, lateral quickness, and ability to get to the rim against NBA defenders -- all things that morrison was questioned on before his draft.
obviously he has the potential to be better ... but so did morrison. my point here -- again, backing away from the nitty gritty and looking at the big picture -- is that both guys got their points in college by being "crafty", and it's a lot harder to rely on that when you work in a league with the world's best athletes.
and, lest my points be misunderstood, this is not about being white. there are black guys who are slight of build, have tweener height, and are average athletes who have also struggled to translate their abilities to the pro game. no matter who you are, it's tough to go from being head-and-shoulders above your peers to being surrounded by people who are as good as you. it's just easier to make that transition when you have some outstanding strenghts you can rely on. for some guys that's athleticism, for others it's shooting, etc. i don't know what gordon's one thing is that's going to ensure his success, and that's what i worry about. but, like i said on the blog, i'll be thrilled if i'm wrong.
obviously he has the potential to be better ... but so did morrison. my point here -- again, backing away from the nitty gritty and looking at the big picture -- is that both guys got their points in college by being "crafty", and it's a lot harder to rely on that when you work in a league with the world's best athletes.
and, lest my points be misunderstood, this is not about being white. there are black guys who are slight of build, have tweener height, and are average athletes who have also struggled to translate their abilities to the pro game. no matter who you are, it's tough to go from being head-and-shoulders above your peers to being surrounded by people who are as good as you. it's just easier to make that transition when you have some outstanding strenghts you can rely on. for some guys that's athleticism, for others it's shooting, etc. i don't know what gordon's one thing is that's going to ensure his success, and that's what i worry about. but, like i said on the blog, i'll be thrilled if i'm wrong.
Hey man, I already knew. And I said one thing, because absolutely nothing else jumps off the page to me about him. Except that he wins at much more inferior levels of competition. Everyone brings something to the table, whether it's good enough to play or not.
And in Evans defense, his arms were at least longer than his height, his lateral footspeed times are good and he's been reknown and projected as a lockdown defender at the NBA level since he landed on the NBA radar. Maybe their offense is comparable in the NBA, but their defense won't and unless you're an incredible scorer, you simply HAVE to play D to be a winning role player (Fisher, Horry, Bowen, guys like that). I don't see Hayward as being strong (LeBron, Maggette, Pierce) or agile (LeBron, Durant, Gay) enough to be that kind of scorer in the NBA (and for a SF, you HAVE to have one of those qualities to be a scorer).
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