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Claiming that the history of the build-up of capital doesn’t matter to the discussion of capital (in any given location) is ****ing ridic. Obvi.
My stance is the exact opposite. I have no issue with an honest discussion of history which is why I criticize the apparent crutch of editing out the last 70 years to maintain an alternate construct that doesn’t reflect our world.

if you’re saying anything about the quantitative nature of capital—and you must in any historically grounded discussion—then you have to say something about colonialism. The build-up of capital has left a very clear material record.
There has been more wealth created in the past 70 years than in all of the rest of human history combined thanks to the wide adoption of capitalistic economic principles. Quantitatively speaking, the Pax Americana era is the most capitalistic era in history by a wide margin. People are living longer, freer lives and global trade has replaced global conquest. As I pointed out earlier, there hasn’t been a recent boom in colonialism. The whole narrative of capitalism and colonialism going hand-in-hand qualitatively or quantitatively is monumentally stupid. It can’t stand up to even cursory examination, and the deeper you look the worse the idea is shown to be.
 
My stance is the exact opposite. I have no issue with an honest discussion of history which is why I criticize the apparent crutch of editing out the last 70 years to maintain an alternate construct that doesn’t reflect our world.

There has been more wealth created in the past 70 years than in all of the rest of human history combined thanks to the wide adoption of capitalistic economic principles. Quantitatively speaking, the Pax Americana era is the most capitalistic era in history by a wide margin. People are living longer, freer lives and global trade has replaced global conquest. As I pointed out earlier, there hasn’t been a recent boom in colonialism. The whole narrative of capitalism and colonialism going hand-in-hand qualitatively or quantitatively is monumentally stupid. It can’t stand up to even cursory examination, and the deeper you look the worse the idea is shown to be.
What’s been determining which points of mine you’ll step up and make a rebuttal against, and which ones you’ll ignore?

Maybe if we understood this facet of the discussion we could gain some insights into why the rebuttals you’re giving aren’t adequate. The “crutch” you’re seeing is a figment of your imagination.


Also.... do you feel how you’ve rounded back into a telling of history that requires climate to be included? Or is your denial so strong you don’t feel it?
 
do you feel how you’ve rounded back into a telling of history that requires climate to be included? Or is your denial so strong you don’t feel it?
I don’t run from discussions of climate but as familiar as I am with the published literature, I also know this is another sticky trap socialists like to employ. Instead of cherry-picked history used to craft a nonsense correlation between capitalism and colonialism, the climate argument ventures into a supposed future where imagination is argued as fact.

I’m not saying global warming and its anthropogenic causes are imagination but rather the supposed post-apocalyptic world straight out of The Road Warrior that will accompany that warming. I’ve already shown how life has become better for those of us here on Earth while at the exact same time atmospheric carbon has also been increasing.

The amount of carbon being emitted by China has been rising like a rocket and so has the standard of living for the Chinese people. The same twin rise of carbon and standard of living can be seen in India. There is a well documented worldwide rise in the standard of living. I don’t find any frustration in discussing the real world observations of the past 70 years. Is that what you want to see included or is more along the lines of the future pictured in your imagination that you had in mind?
 
For the record, the panic-mongering has been my biggest problem with climate change disciples. Will we see changes, absolutely. Will they absolutely be species-destroying events? I remain highly skeptical of those outcomes.


Then again I'm a bit of a nihilist so...
 
I don’t run from discussions of climate but as familiar as I am with the published literature, I also know this is another sticky trap socialists like to employ. Instead of cherry-picked history used to craft a nonsense correlation between capitalism and colonialism, the climate argument ventures into a supposed future where imagination is argued as fact.

I’m not saying global warming and its anthropogenic causes are imagination but rather the supposed post-apocalyptic world straight out of The Road Warrior that will accompany that warming. I’ve already shown how life has become better for those of us here on Earth while at the exact same time atmospheric carbon has also been increasing.

The amount of carbon being emitted by China has been rising like a rocket and so has the standard of living for the Chinese people. The same twin rise of carbon and standard of living can be seen in India. There is a well documented worldwide rise in the standard of living. I don’t find any frustration in discussing the real world observations of the past 70 years. Is that what you want to see included or is more along the lines of the future pictured in your imagination that you had in mind?
70 years is a totally inadequate amount of time to understand almost anything. But especially inadequate if you want to understand climate. And capitalism, too, of course.

The biggest “trap” is short-term thinking. But I’m guessing you feel as though you haven’t been trapped.
 
For the record, the panic-mongering has been my biggest problem with climate change disciples. Will we see changes, absolutely. Will they absolutely be species-destroying events? I remain highly skeptical of those outcomes.


Then again I'm a bit of a nihilist so...
You’re smart enough to find your way to good sources of information on this. And smart enough to avoid the overly sensational.

We’re already in the midst of species losses welllllllll beyond background extinction rates for several different families of organisms. Biodiversity losses are real and serious.
 
I’m a socialist setting traps.... lmfao. You can see who is willing to assume and disparage with labels here.
 
How do you square that with the small percentage of Neanderthal DNA found in the genetics of people today? Would you consider the Neanderthal to have been replaced by a genetically different people?
Sorry for the delayed reply.
I had a long reply, wrote it, brought in the other species of Homo that also co-existed at the same time as sapiens and Neanderthal, and then thought, what am I doing, and discarded it.

Because, more to the point, I read the paper you cited, and found a good summary as well:


I’m not used to thinking of Clovis in South America. I knew true Clovis points had been found there, although no further south than Venezuela. I don’t dispute the findings in the study in Cell. I’ll just point out why this statement by you puzzled me at the time. I better understand your point now:

“… the Clovis people being wiped out by a genetically different people 9,000 years ago”…

Confusion #1: Clovis, in its narrow description, refers to a technology and a stone tool kit, more than to a people. It cannot be said with certainty who developed it, only that it was developed in North America. It spread throughout the continent, and as you noted, as far south as South America. And lasted only 300 years. It can be time constrained from 13,200-12,900 years ago. It’s distinctive tool was the Clovis point, with its basal thinning channel to facilitate hafting. I may have said 500 years earlier, but it’s 300, and it’s end is coincident with the start of the cold snap, known as the Younger Dryas, and which may, or may not, have been triggered by a meteorite impact in Greenland at about 12,900 years ago. Because post-Clovis fluted points are so similar, and obviously descended from Clovis, it’s still a mystery to me why the technology was altered at all. Perhaps changing game fauna was behind it, but I’m skeptical of that as a reason.

Confusion #2. Because Clovis, as a technology for producing fluted points, and an associated tool kit, is very time constrained, I had trouble understanding how we could still speak of “Clovis people” 9000 years ago, roughly 4000 years after the end of Clovis. Archaeologists, at least, do not think in terms of “Clovis people” existing 9000 years ago. Archaeologists think of Clovis ending 12,900 years ago. Since the immediate post-Clovis projectile points were also fluted, and obviously descended from Clovis, but not its exact method of fluting, it’s fair to assume it’s the same people, but archaeology, at least, no longer applies the term Clovis to the people producing those points. When they speak of “Clovis culture”, they speak of that brief 300 year period.


In other words, it seems like the geneticists who authored the study in Cell are applying the term “Clovis people” to people living long after Clovis technology ended, simply because their genetics is related to the genetics of people who made Clovis points. Although, as far as I know, the Anzick child Clovis burial is the only Clovis burial known to date. The only place we’ve obtained DNA of an individual associated with Clovis. But, my point would be, and one source of my confusion, is that Paleo archaeologists, unlike apparently some geneticists, don’t speak of “Clovis people” existing post 12,900 years ago. “Fluted point hunters” is a more general term, and covers all the bands that used both Clovis and post-Clovis fluted projectile points. I’ve not seen “Clovis people” used to describe post-Clovis culture before. And 9000 years ago is not even the Paleolithic era in North America. It’s the Early Archaic by that date.

Thanks for re familiarizing myself with Paleolithic studies in South America. I’m not a professional, but there has always been a disconnect among Paleo archaeologists working in the two continents. I vaguely do recall the study, but genetics will never be my strong point. One thing I can say with certainty is we are only at the beginning of understanding the peopling of the Americas. The fossil footprint discovery opens up all the early dates like no new discovery to date.
 
70 years is a totally inadequate amount of time to understand almost anything. But especially inadequate if you want to understand climate.
That would be news to Ben Santer who was one of the IPCC lead authors. He's got a paper setting that limit at 17 years. I can post the link if you'd like it.
 
That would be news to Ben Santer who was one of the IPCC lead authors. He's got a paper setting that limit at 17 years. I can post the link if you'd like it.
He’s saying that you can understand the crucial dynamics of the Earth System (and the climate-focused aspect of that) by studying a 17-year interval? Yeah, I’d like to see this mythical paper. Tia.
 
He’s saying that you can understand the crucial dynamics of the Earth System (and the climate-focused aspect of that) by studying a 17-year interval? Yeah, I’d like to see this mythical paper. Tia.
Seriously?!? I was trying to be funny with the "I can post the link if you'd like it". This is one of the most famous papers in climate science done by one of the most widely respected climate scientists in the field

As one Jazz fan to another, I've put the link below. Read it, remember it, and pretend you knew of it all along because not knowing this paper is embarrassing for anyone claiming to have followed climate science.

 
Seriously?!? I was trying to be funny with the "I can post the link if you'd like it". This is one of the most famous papers in climate science done by one of the most widely respected climate scientists in the field

As one Jazz fan to another, I've put the link below. Read it, remember it, and pretend you knew of it all along because not knowing this paper is embarrassing for anyone claiming to have followed climate science.

Trust me, I’m laughing too. Would you mind reiterating the conclusions you’ve drawn from this paper? The stage is all yours.

It’s Santer et al., btw.
 
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You’re smart enough to find your way to good sources of information on this. And smart enough to avoid the overly sensational.

We’re already in the midst of species losses welllllllll beyond background extinction rates for several different families of organisms. Biodiversity losses are real and serious.
Unfortunately burgeoning human population accounts for far more extinctions than climate change. At least so far. Just us existing has driven thousands of species extinct. If that's the concern then lower human populations in general is better for the planet.

That's more than a little of the nihilist in me talking tbh.
 
You’re smart enough to find your way to good sources of information on this. And smart enough to avoid the overly sensational.

We’re already in the midst of species losses welllllllll beyond background extinction rates for several different families of organisms. Biodiversity losses are real and serious.
As far as overly sensational, well that's apparently in the eye of the beholder. Even NPR has entertained guests espousing the position that climate change means imminent human demise, and not from the standpoint of point/counterpoint, more as forgone conclusion. It's pretty well-ingrained into the climate change ethos at this point.
 
Unfortunately burgeoning human population accounts for far more extinctions than climate change. At least so far. Just us existing has driven thousands of species extinct. If that's the concern then lower human populations in general is better for the planet.

That's more than a little of the nihilist in me talking tbh.
You seem to make a distinction between “burgeoning human population” and the dynamics driving “climate change”. Maybe I’m mistaken. But, you can’t untangle the two.
 
As far as overly sensational, well that's apparently in the eye of the beholder. Even NPR has entertained guests espousing the position that climate change means imminent human demise, and not from the standpoint of point/counterpoint, more as forgone conclusion. It's pretty well-ingrained into the climate change ethos at this point.
Some of the scenarios are pretty bleak. A 4-degree C scenario by 2100 is on-the-table, and that would be massively catastrophic. I don’t think you can look at those models, take note of the degree of confidence and probability that the scientific community has in them, and then report back to the uninitiated with dulcet tones. **** is serious; and that’s just a fact.
 
Has Al-O left the building? How’d he get out from the corner he’d backed himself into?
 
You seem to make a distinction between “burgeoning human population” and the dynamics driving “climate change”. Maybe I’m mistaken. But, you can’t untangle the two.
Well, humans moving into ecosystems have been driving species extinct presumably since we developed civilization. Thousands of years maybe? Climate change has been affecting species extinction over what time frame? 50 years? They are tangentially-related but not inextricably linked to our effect on other species. Let's just say it's (climate change) a factor currently, among the many other factors that we affect that can drive species extinct. Such as feral housecats which have driven dozens of bird species extinct over the last 100 years alone, and that problem is almost entirely anthropogenic in nature.

Humans are destructive by nature. Agent Smith wasn't far off in his assessment of humans in the Matrix. We consume and destroy. I don't think it's very arguable that the planet as a whole would be better off with far fewer humans, and even better with none at all.

For the record, mother nature has driven far more species extinct than we ever will, unless we get to a nuclear winter scenario.

I just really doubt climate change is the nuclear winter.
 
Well, humans moving into ecosystems have been driving species extinct presumably since we developed civilization. Thousands of years maybe? Climate change has been affecting species extinction over what time frame? 50 years? They are tangentially-related but not inextricably linked to our effect on other species. Let's just say it's (climate change) a factor currently, among the many other factors that we affect that can drive species extinct. Such as feral housecats which have driven dozens of bird species extinct over the last 100 years alone, and that problem is almost entirely anthropogenic in nature.

Humans are destructive by nature. Agent Smith wasn't far off in his assessment of humans in the Matrix. We consume and destroy. I don't think it's very arguable that the planet as a whole would be better off with far fewer humans, and even better with none at all.

For the record, mother nature has driven far more species extinct than we ever will, unless we get to a nuclear winter scenario.

I just really doubt climate change is the nuclear winter.
I recommend Ellis’ book Anthropocene: a very short introduction. It’s excellent, and would definitely iron out some of your clunky distinctions. Humans have indeed massively accelerated in their impact of the Earth System in the last 70 years—and, yes, humans have been driving ecosystemic changes for much longer than that. But leaving Holocene conditions is a significant moment in that story. And there are mannnnnnny reasons to suspect nonlinear changes in the Earth system now that we have.


Let me put it to you this way (I think I can say this frankly, since you and I have a rapport): I can tell by the way that you’re framing your rationale that you would benefit by looking further into the science. From my seat, your doubts sound precisely like a psychological defense strategy (it isn’t an uncommon one, fwiw).


Human-induced climate change doesn’t need to become the “nuclear winter”.... whatever that means..... but it could, in fact, be as bad as a nuclear winter (something that can cause massive crop shortages for 2-5 years and cause serious ****ing problems). There’s no doubting the serious probabilities of that when you study the science.
 
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