The Thriller
Well-Known Member
good post. I guess he was serving more stupid red meat to the stupid people who think he’s a genius, like Miles Bron.
John Stockton Claims He Had Proof of 1000 Athletes Dying of Vaccine
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Douchebag K
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when the vaccine doesn't actually stop you contracting or transmitting said disease. Where said disease is incredibly mild for a large amount of the heatlhy population. Where said vaccine is dubious in it's effects for the younger healthy population. Where said vaccine has a small % of known effects that haven't been studied extensively. Where said vaccine has no long term or even medium term follow up safety data. Whether you agree or not the rationale is the weighing up of these factors for younger healthy people, it's not rocket science. Polio is such a stupid analogy. Different disease, different rates of outcome Completely different success rate of the vaccine.
You still really think the vaccine is a magic silver bullet that everyone should take it endlessly ??
"First do no harm"
I've read that 15-20% of the people surviving covid19 get long covid (frankly, that seems high). Still, even if it's as low as 5%, that's a debilitating illness being prevented by vaccination. Measles is, to my understanding, more virulent, less deadly, and has fewer side effects.
These are all valid considerations, answerable only by data regarding outcomes, stratified across ages levels and other considerations. AFAIK, the WHO and CDC have these numbers. If you have them, I'd be very interested in reading them.
Douchebag K
Well-Known Member
mostly agree. Though i've read other studies that suggest long Covid is not much different that the rate of lingering symptoms for other illnesses. There's a lot of conflicting information and about a lot of things that are very difficult to accurately quantify
The Thriller
Well-Known Member
The anti vax movement is beginning to take its toll on our society.
View: https://twitter.com/abc4utah/status/1615103759662686216?s=46&t=xNZqw_iAR3C7sjrEip4HiA
View: https://twitter.com/abc4utah/status/1615103759662686216?s=46&t=xNZqw_iAR3C7sjrEip4HiA
LogGrad98
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First, if a vaccine is found to
Then it won't be recommended for the general population anyway. And...
it also won't be recommended for the general population. Take for example, the HPV vaccine. It is for a specific subset of the population, and is therefore not recommended for the general populace. That isn't that hard to understand, is it? Can you tell me ONE vaccine that was recommended for the general population that DEFINITIVELY fits the criteria you outlined above? One? Let me guess, COVID. Still a ridiculous assertion as it has been shown to have positive results for the vast majority of people, and the negative effects are not proven, AND whether we vaccinate the entire population is still a matter of DISCUSSION, and has not been mandated for that reason.
And polio is a great analogy. Many people fought against the polio vaccine. It was not a popular thing at the time. It took mandates to get it into the general population which then all but eradicated the disease, until of course our current crop of anti-vaxers decided their kid, or worse someone else's kid who relies on herd immunity due to health issues, needed polio more than they needed to vaccinate their kids. So we are seeing it on the rise again. Same with measles.
In short, there have been exactly ZERO vaccines that were administered to the general populace by mandate that caused more harm than they prevented. Hence the statement by Musk was moronic and just perpetuates the anti-vaxer stance that is now causing previously nearly-eradicated diseases to rise again. Funny how the damage is happening because people DIDN'T get vaccinated, and not the other way around. Huh. Imagine that.
Oh, and not a single person has claimed the vaccine is a silver bullet. You are creating that straw man because your argument doesn't hold water. The flu vaccine is no magic bullet. I got the flu vaccine this year, and still got the flu a couple of weeks ago. But we do know after YEARS of evidence that administering the flu vaccine guards against deaths from the flu. We are HOPING to get a COVID vaccine that operates similarly, but no one, not a single person, except people like you in counter-argument straw men, has claimed that the current vaccines are a silver bullet. Get out of here with that intellectually dishonest **** argument.
Red
Well-Known Member
This won’t fly in this Nevada county, but reasons given are to wait and see what Florida Governor DeSantis discovers about the harms caused by the vaccine.
www.reviewjournal.com
Elko County health board to consider banning COVID, flu vaccines
The Elko County Board of Health is scheduled to meet Wednesday to discuss and consider placing a moratorium on COVID-19 and flu vaccines in the county.
www.reviewjournal.com
Douchebag K
Well-Known Member
uhh your (something) friend Thriller very clearly was stating that if only everyone took the vaccine it'd completely end the pandemic. And many many people have foamed at the mouth to the same effect worldwide.
and you are completely missing the point. Is the flu shot given to everyone of any age ? NO It is given to people at higher risk. This is all i have been pointing out all along, that treating everyone the same with Covid is ridiculous given that it is such a different disease for different ages, health status etc. My mum is currently Covid + She's had 4 shots and is doing fine. My 17 year old had it last year No shots, barely a sniffle.
The only intellectual dishonesty is those not seeing the vaccination issue as something that should vary in considering different age and health status. You just can't say "the general populace" That is just myopic
You can actually have the view of "why the **** wouldn't you get vaxxed if you're a little older and not in great health" at the same time as "why the **** would you give this thing to healthy young children" Hasn't the Covid vaccine just been added to the childhood vaccination list there ? Which conveniently allows it to remain legally protected.
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The Thriller
Well-Known Member
Why did you include me in this post?
Who do you think you’re persuading with posts like these?
It’s pretty hilarious to see you lecture anyone here about intellectual dishonesty.
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fishonjazz
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Im not higher risk nor is my wife but we were both given the flu shot this year (and every year).
It is literally given to everyone of any age. My daughter is 6. Got it last year. My mom is nearly 80. She got it too. My wife and I are middle aged (40's) and we both got it.
What age or ages do you think the flu shot is restricted from being given too?
The Thriller
Well-Known Member
I love how you point out these simple factoids. I remember getting the flu shot when I was a child. It wasn’t because I was higher risk. It was because my parents didn’t want me to get severely sick. Vaccines help prevent infection and/or serious infections. My wife and I have gotten the flu shot for the last several years and just this past year my wife got the TDap booster. Vaccines aren’t scary.
I don’t know why some people are scared of vaccines. It’s a really weird hill to die on.
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LogGrad98
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First, the first comment was uncalled for, and I take extreme exception to it. You are better than that, and you should have seen enough to know that thriller and I do not agree on very much. I didn't throw ad hominem at you. Why start with it here? Shows you are not super certain in your argument, tbh. The fact that that was your starting point tells me you don't put a lot of critical thinking to this stuff so you need to start with the insults. And since when was Thriller the final determining authority on any of this, and why bring him up when what I stated had nothing to do with anything he said or did?
Second, I was commenting on Musk's statement which was irresponsible as there is not a single example of what he is claiming, yet many will take it as an excuse to refuse vaccines in general and continue railing against the COVID vaccine specifically. Do you have an example of a vaccine causing more harm than the disease? If you have such blinders on you cannot see the unintended consequences and far-reaching possible effects of such a statement by someone like Musk, then may I introduce you to the hoards of people who support Trump? It also again makes me unsure you are being intellectually honest about this whole thing, yet again. Keeping your opinion carefully sheltered behind your anecdotal evidence.
So along those lines, I appreciate all your anecdotal evidence but I imagine we would be better served by using, you know, actual data and real scientific evidence, before using mummy as the reason for refusal to administer a potential life-saving vaccine.
And no, it has not been added to a super-secret caballistic coded untouchable childhood vaccine schedule or whatever stupid **** that is conveniently supposed to refer to. No one is forcing it on anyone. No one is planting secret microchips in it. Not sure what other pseudo-science ******** you subscribe to, but none of it is real. As I said, no one views it as a silver bullet (a part you chose to skim over, and in fact double down on with the Thriller comments, thanks for the intellectual honesty there), and no one is codifying it into permanent US scripture or whatever conspiracy you are afraid of there. Is it a point of discussion? Absolutely, as it should be, for something multiple times more deadly than the flu, which kills tens of thousands annually. At some point we would hope we get a vaccine we can administer like a flu vaccine, that would be best case scenario. But to brush it off entirely and "abandon all hope ye who get infected here" is a terrible approach to even consider. My and mine are fine, so **** you and yours, amirite? Great way to approach something from a societal perspective.
But, circling back to what this was about in the first place nut-jobs like Musk throwing the efficacy of vaccines into question with some fake made-up ****, with zero evidence to back it up, because he has some Trump-ian need to control people is just ludicrous and irresponsible. He should be lambasted for it.
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gandalfe
Well-Known Member
That has never been because it was contraindicated in the young and health, but due to supply issues - there aren't enough for everyone, so give it to the vulnerable first. Most years recently that hasn't been an issue.
In the US, in years when the flu vaccine production has been limited, it's given based on risk. In years when it's plentiful, it's given to almost all ages (not infants/toddlers).
Add one more to the COVID vaccine death list
www.cnn.com
Charlotte FC soccer player Anton Walkes dies at age 25 following boating accident | CNN
Anton Walkes, a defender for Major League Soccer team Charlotte FC, has died from injuries suffered in a boating accident at age 25, the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission (FWC) said in a statement.
www.cnn.com
I just want to say that this man's death is very sad and I'm sure a tragedy for the people close to him. I'm not trying to make light of his death, or his life, in my tongue in cheek post above.Add one more to the COVID vaccine death list
Charlotte FC soccer player Anton Walkes dies at age 25 following boating accident | CNN
Anton Walkes, a defender for Major League Soccer team Charlotte FC, has died from injuries suffered in a boating accident at age 25, the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission (FWC) said in a statement.
Bucknutz
Well-Known Member
This debate is and will be become more mainstream when reports like this keep coming out. This is why there should be an open discussion rather than attacking each other and shutting down information coming from one side.
www.dailymail.co.uk
Aussies dying from heart attacks at rapid rate after Covid lockdowns
Up to 10,200 Australians died of ischemic heart disease in the first eight months of 2022 - marking a 17 per cent increase on what would be expected in a 'normal' year.
What in that article do you think is in conflict with the mainstream position?This debate is and will be become more mainstream when reports like this keep coming out. This is why there should be an open discussion rather than attacking each other and shutting down information coming from one side.
Aussies dying from heart attacks at rapid rate after Covid lockdowns
Up to 10,200 Australians died of ischemic heart disease in the first eight months of 2022 - marking a 17 per cent increase on what would be expected in a 'normal' year.
gandalfe
Well-Known Member
The article specifically says that "vaccination can reduce the risk of non‐respiratory complications of Covid, including ischaemic stroke." Also, "The estimated risk of myocarditis or pericarditis after SARS‐CoV‐2 infection is 18–21 times as high as for uninfected people."This debate is and will be become more mainstream when reports like this keep coming out. This is why there should be an open discussion rather than attacking each other and shutting down information coming from one side.
Aussies dying from heart attacks at rapid rate after Covid lockdowns
Up to 10,200 Australians died of ischemic heart disease in the first eight months of 2022 - marking a 17 per cent increase on what would be expected in a 'normal' year.
So, basically, there is nothing in that article that blames vaccines. So what is your point?
Bucknutz
Well-Known Member
It is the mainstream position.
Excess death by heart attacks. Heart issues and strokes. They all die by every reason but the vaccine.
This is not an open discussion. You even see it on this forum. Calling everyone names who bring up the possibility that vaccines could be a cause.
What is causing all these excess heart deaths? 17% jump after the roll out of vaccines?
Here is another article stating the first year of Covid there was a sharp rise at 14% and then the second year was at 29%.
Heart attack deaths jumped sharply among young U.S. adults in 2nd year of pandemic
These excessively higher rates of heart attack-related death have persisted throughout the pandemic, including the possibility that COVID-19 could trigger or accelerate coronary artery disease.
www.pressherald.com
Yet:
Mainstream:
View: https://youtu.be/w5kKKUqHKjA
“Quacks”
View: https://twitter.com/draseemmalhotra/status/1613837487796850688?s=46&t=5hlw-6Kl3-HT0EkHm2CU7A
I’m not an expert, but I like the flow of information from both sides of this issue. Just like we don’t know where Covid came from (lab/market) we don’t know what’s causing all these excess deaths. Yet people on one side love to call everyone anti-vax, quacks, dumb asses and shout down their views.
We don’t even know each persons vaccination status who died. How many boosters did they receive, how many times were they infected by Covid. Were they healthy or did they have health issues.
That was the point of my post. It brings up more questions and not answers. Especially due to the timing. I know and understand young and healthy people were dying before Covid with heart issues. This is not debatable. It’s the understanding what’s really causing the spike.