Looking for a new team

[Boris]

We can agree to disagree. I think Exum is going to be very solid. Not Westbrook solid per se but a night and day difference over his rookie year (and what we had this year, especially on the defensive end), and eventually, very, very good.

Think about it. We won 40 games this year with what was basically a 3rd string point guard at the helm for 82 games, a backup 6th man at the reins for 50+ games, and significant time missed from each of our two starting bigs. All that with little depth to begin with. Add in all those close losses which, according to someone like Kicky who you respect, balance out over the course of a year except they didn't balance out this year. Oh yeah, and we were the second youngest team in the league. The way I see it, better health equates into another 4-5 wins, finishing closer to or at .500 in very close games equates to 2-3 more wins, and organic growth equates into 2-4 more wins, which puts us around 8-12 more wins. Middle that and we're looking at 50 wins. I'm not stupid enough to think this is some exact science and I recognize our teams flaws and also recognize that injuries are gonna happen. But this season was a bit of a perfect storm of little depth/youth accompanied by injuries to **** us. This year, we have more experience, more hunger (is that another 1-2 wins?), better depth (can't be worse), and better health(again, can it be any worse?), plus the decline (right?) of Houston, Dallas, and San Antonio, at least a little bit.

The way I see it, if the Jazz OU is anywhere at 43.5 or lower, I am gonna bang it for as much as I can. Like literally, possibly 5-10K.

In short, I think our combination of organic growth, improved health, better depth through the draft and maybe free agency, a more desperate attitude from the players and coaching, as well as a decline from some other teams, will net much improved production. My prediction? I'll pull back a tiny bit. 48-34, the 5 seed and a forst round exit in 6 games.

This this this.

50 wins easy w Exum and health and fortified bench. Cunning you did not ever mention improvements for Hood n Lyles. They are gonna break out in 2017.

Imagine when we get Durant. Suddenly we go from 50 wins to 60-62 and op will be crying as her ex-jazz kill her new team. Next offseason Durants buddy Westbrook signs and we trade Hayward for bench pieces.

Westbrook, Exum
Hood, Burks
Someone Deng?
Durant, Favors
Gobert, Favors

Nobody will beat that team.

 

[Jamezz]

Thank god we'll always have the Bees.

 

[Stoked]

Lol [MENTION=578]franklin[/MENTION] name dropping in an attempt to make his posts carry weight.


We can ignore the fact that in many of his stances (as far as individual players) I've openly agreed with for months now. But let's ignore that for the agenda.

 

[Ron Mexico]

We disagree. Yes I have been selling the young ones for a while now. And last year was a playoff team without the injuries and a super young team as well.
What we have been waiting for is coming. (If what you have been waiting for isn't being a championship contender anyway).
It's gonna be ok

We havent been selling the young ones for too long since they are still really young and none of them have hit their peak. Just silly to call a player as young as Exum a bust. But Frank is good at what he does.

 

[Stoked]

and GVC is right about Dennis Lindsey. The dudes best acquisition in almost 4-5 years is Shelvin Mack who would only pass the water on a Hawks team LOL

Agreed. DL has not shown anything on the trade market in what 3 seasons now? All evidence points to him being weak in that area. If that's true it's not good for the Jazz.

 

[Ron Mexico]

A few responses in edited order (with one earlier quote):

From earlier in the thread:

From your previous post:
I've seen these particular double-think arguments frequently on this site. You can't have it both ways. Why was it wrong to dump lame-duck vets to give young players more time to play and develop in 2012, but right to not add vets to give young players more time to play and develop in 2015?


You don't 'tank' for a mid-first when you already have a team loaded with middling talent. The Jazz need to add more high-end talent. My preference would be to acquire talent via free agency and trades (as opposed to through tanking). The Jazz have chosen the middle road of neither tanking nor consolidating and adding talent through trade and free agency. It's the worst possible option.


KOC was a terrific GM. I'm not sure what his record has to do with DL's ability.


1. The extra money is only in the form of an additional year and slightly higher raises.

2. His opinion of the team/organization/teammates is pure speculation. Players are smart enough to play nice, as doing otherwise generally devalues them. He may be itching to leave, and he's already signed one contract (offer sheet) with another team. We'll have to wait and see (although Frank linking to some of his statements in the OP would be helpful).

3. The 5th seed is the ceiling for this team next season. There may be better teams with cap space next summer.

I said maybe they could have traded them earlier for more. I didnt say what I thought they should have done. I think they should have traded them for picks much earlier. Or not traded for Big Al and gone into tank mode then. So its the same.

Also I disagree about Hayward. It is all speculation him leaving or staying but all signs point to him staying. I also trust the FO to evaluate him staying or leaving properly and move him. An extra year and higher raises is significant. A lot of players do not walk away from that. Most players are willing to get paid less to chase a ring are much older than Hayward.

I disagree that 5th seed is the ceiling for this team next year. I think the ceiling is higher and I think a 5th seed is likely if we stay healthy and make a couple decent but minor moves in FA or trades. Guess that is where we see a difference. I think we have a solid young team that is going to grow and be good. You see this team as close to their ceiling already. This year we missed the 5th seed by 4 games and we had lots of injuries, bad breaks and no bench or vets. I dont see us being at Portlands level as our our ceiling next year, I think it is higher. I also think we will continue to get much better even if we keep the same players and make no moves for at least 4 more years.

 

[Shad]

Look, I like the Jazz. Everyone on this forum basically does too. Some of us are sick and tired about "well, if we were healthy" or "give us X amount of years and we will be fine." The fact is we aren't. Some people throw the term tanking for us which I don't think we ever honestly did. I just think we are that bad. This team is injury prone. I can unfortunately say someone will go down this up coming year and we all will get to hear all the jazzfanz for another season "WELL, IF SO AND SO DIDNT GET HURT WE WOULD BE A 5TH SEED." There's really always been someone constantly injured (not their fault) so expect it for the coming year

 

[GVC]

You're way to technial if you take two years to mean 730 calendar days with in the context of the discussion, which was me telling him that in 2 years (2 years in this case obviously meaning seasons since we are discussing basketball games) the jazz will be really good. He said favors would be gone in two years (seasons). I knew he was under contact for 2 more seasons. I still beleive that to be true and still believe that in two years (seasons, 17-18 one to be exact) we will be really good and favors will want to stay.

But you said 'can't' not 'won't'. Whatever, doesn't matter.

 

[fishonjazz]

But you said 'can't' not 'won't'. Whatever, doesn't matter.

Agreed.

 

[Ron Mexico]

Look, I like the Jazz. Everyone on this forum basically does too. Some of us are sick and tired about "well, if we were healthy" or "give us X amount of years and we will be fine." The fact is we aren't. Some people throw the term tanking for us which I don't think we ever honestly did. I just think we are that bad. This team is injury prone. I can unfortunately say someone will go down this up coming year and we all will get to hear all the jazzfanz for another season "WELL, IF SO AND SO DIDNT GET HURT WE WOULD BE A 5TH SEED." There's really always been someone constantly injured (not their fault) so expect it for the coming year

The best way to tank is to have no depth and really young players playing significant starting roles. So you are complaining we overachieved and our players are better than expected. Rebuilds are hard but necessary and take time. It would be nice to be able to retool on the fly or win the lottery 3 times in a short period of time like Cleveland but those are hard to come by. Did you expect the second youngest team in the NBA to be contending? Has that ever happened? Not sure what the best record is for a team as young as ours was or the second youngest team in the league but I doubt there are many if any that have done much better. Most people on this board with our team expected to compete for playoffs and were hoping for an 8th seed. Why has that expectation changed now that the season is over. We barely came short of that and finished about where expected of most of us before the season began.

I expect injuries just not at the level we did last year.

I expect 5-10 more wins without any real moves. I also expect a couple moves that will bump that number up. I hope a couple players make a significant jump in play which young players often do which will bump that number up even more.

Do you think we will be in the Playoffs next year or lottery if we stay the course?

 

[gregbroncs]

Let's face it. The last 6 years have been nothing short of a train wreck. Even when they decided to wreck the train they couldn't even get it off the rails. They've let players walk for nothing to "rebuild", but they never actually rebuilt. Now we are hearing Hayward saying he thinks a lot about leaving for a contender, don't have any great draft picks, have an injury prone roster that was obviously bound for it (Burks and Favors), have wasted draft pick after draft pick but gotten lucky in the later rounds, fail to spend money to add assets last offseason, have passed up on some pretty sweet opportunities to add a killer point guard...


Tell me why I should stay loyal to an organization that refuses to put a product on the floor while dragging their feet raking in cash with the lowest payroll in professional sports? Do the Millers deserve my fandom? No.

fans like you are not worth worrying about. You fail to even consider the progress they make while bitching about everything they do. This was a playoff team without fluke injuries to Gobert, Exum and Burks. That was the goal. They were close to accomplishing it despite the bad luck.

Good riddance to you if you can't stick around until they improve. They are still one of the youngest teams in the league and almost made the playoffs despite it. Their draft picks have failed on one count...Burke, who you have defended on here repeatedly.

 

[MDAV28]

Agreed. DL has not shown anything on the trade market in what 3 seasons now? All evidence points to him being weak in that area. If that's true it's not good for the Jazz.

Do we know what was on the table?

DL obviously has a vision to build from within. Develop the talent he has, keep flexibility to maintain the talent we have, or when the time is right try and strike, but he is a smart man knowing that in the Utah market it is paramount to draft and keep the talent that is drafted.

I bring that up cause obviously any trade requires taking a similar value (of contract) back. It could be a longer deal than the outgoing player and effect flexibility. Hindsight is 20/20 with the Kanter trade. Nobody knows what was on the table, believing in a new, competent, head coach to turn Kanter around for this team isn't a fault of DL.

 

[gregbroncs]

The Jazz missed the playoffs for 3 seasons -- 2004-2006. The two biggest differences between then and now:

1. Deron >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Exum.

2. KOC was active in adding talent to the team; DL does **** all.

Exum was younger entering the league and far less experienced. And how are you sure Deon was all that much better? Frankly we've barely seen Exum, But what we saw was a great defender who played young on offense. I see it as far too early to be this upset. I guess Jazz fans are spoiled. This is the 1st real rebuild they have gone through. The Sloan team was far more of a quick fix than a legitimate rebuild. If a middling playoff team is all you aspire to they go ahead and build it half assed like last time.

 

[GVC]

Exum was younger entering the league and far less experienced. And how are you sure Deon was all that much better? Frankly we've barely seen Exum, But what we saw was a great defender who played young on offense. I see it as far too early to be this upset. I guess Jazz fans are spoiled. This is the 1st real rebuild they have gone through. The Sloan team was far more of a quick fix than a legitimate rebuild. If a middling playoff team is all you aspire to they go ahead and build it half assed like last time.

You think DL's done a better job these last 4 years than KOC did in the 2 years between the 2003 offseason and the 2005 draft? Jesus. He had far more to work with, and has far less to show for it.

 

[Ellipse]

I have been a Jazz fan for 33 years and have seen a lot of players come and go. I'd hate to see Hayward leave, but I won't lose any sleep if he does. Fact is, all players leave eventually, but the Jazz always remain.

I could not care less about the angst Franklin feels; go root for another team if that's your choice.

 

[prodigy]

Burks - role player
Exum - #4 pick bust
Gobert - pretty good, awesome dude but no cornerstone and not a well rounded player
Favors - solid, middle of the road piece, somewhat efficient
Hayward - solid, middle of the road piece, somewhat efficient
Hood - the only wildcard in the deck atm

give the kid a chance mate

 

[gregbroncs]

Well, I hate to be a realist on you but the team is mediocre at best even when healthy. This is a business and not just about basketball and our 2 best player's contracts are up in 2 years so get ready for either more "give us 10 more years of rebuilding" or shoot for the stars now.

Your not being a realist. Your being a pessimist. There is a difference. Your not using facts to base any of your opinions on. You just don't feel good about where the team is at and so you have a pessimistic POV. I love that every time somebody wants to have a pessimistic POV they call themselves a realist. It's not true your a pessimist not a realist.
.
Generally speaking I don't understand the short sighted view of current Jazz fans. If we had had the same opinions in the past all of you "realist's" would have been screaming for Karl Malone and John Stockton to be traded because they couldn't get over the hump for so long.

 

[gregbroncs]

How about I pick a way less loved/hated character like Trevor Booker and whine for years when he's gone. Those troll jobs seem really easy but that one would be over-the-top lame to the point I might actually find humor in it.

You mean like Corbin? Wait you've been there and done that already.

 

[Shad]

Exum was younger entering the league and far less experienced. And how are you sure Deon was all that much better? Frankly we've barely seen Exum, But what we saw was a great defender who played young on offense. I see it as far too early to be this upset. I guess Jazz fans are spoiled. This is the 1st real rebuild they have gone through. The Sloan team was far more of a quick fix than a legitimate rebuild. If a middling playoff team is all you aspire to they go ahead and build it half assed like last time.

SEASON GP GS MIN FGM-A FG% 3PM-A 3P% FTM-A FT% OR DR REB AST BLK STL PF TO PTS
'05-'06 80 47 28.8 4.2-10.1 .421 1.1-2.7 .416 1.2-1.7 .704 0.4 2.0 2.4 4.5 0.2 0.8 2.9 1.8 10.8

^^^^ Deron William's Rookie Year


Season Team GP GS MIN FGM FGA FG% 3PM 3PA 3P% FTM FTA FT% OFF DEF TRB AST STL BLK PF TOV PTS
2014-15 UTH 82 41 22.2 1.77 5.07 .349 1.01 3.22 .314 0.24 0.39 .625 0.33 1.27 1.60 2.41 0.50 0.17 1.79 1.44 4.79

^^^^^^^ Dante Exum's Rookie Year

There you go. DWill was better in literally almost every stat.

 

[gregbroncs]

You think DL's done a better job these last 4 years than KOC did in the 2 years between the 2003 offseason and the 2005 draft? Jesus. He had far more to work with, and has far less to show for it.

I think that rebuild failed because they tried to do it in a hurry. I think they were pulling one over on the fan base far more then than they are now. I'll give KOC credit for this, back then they wanted to be in the playoffs and did not care about winning a title or trying to rebuild the right way. He did what his bosses wanted and he did it really well. But if you think than team was assembled with a title in mind your fooling yourself. KOC had tons of money and a high draft pick in a really good draft. How did DL have more than that? Also KOC had a potential cornerstone piece already on the roster in AK. People forget just how good AK was that year those scrubs made the playoffs.