My hot take on what I'd do in the off-season.


FAILED STATE

Well-Known Member
It would else help to have a defender that didn't turn to stone at the sight of a Jamal Murray dribble move
Elite scoring guards will victimize almost any defender. You need to take away their favorite options, and you need to do this with a few different schemes. One of those looks—and this is especially true with Murray—is a good switching scheme. Another is just putting a variety of individual defenders on him. There are others.

We may not have had the arsenal of defenders to really slow him down, but I think we had enough (or should have had enough) in the bag to get the series win. I am unsatisfied with the level of experimentation and adjustments we saw from Quin.
 

toddychurch

Well-Known Member
Here's a question. Some peolpe here describe the Conley trade as the worst trade of the decade in the NBA(and Im not that far from agreeing with it)... DL got the time and chance to build up that team and had a several playoff runs with a couple different iterations of that team, but he never managed to build good enough roster to be true contender. So the question here is ... if we are going to go into a rebuild, do we want DL leading that rebuild or do we want someone else? I don't think this is an easy question to answer. I don't think DL has done a bad job with this team(and there are plenty worse GMs in the league), but when the time came for him to put the finishing touches on this roster he miserably failed. Conley has been atrocious trade, Ed Davis, Jeff Green and Mudiay were zeros for this team when playoff time came...
I agree with you. My biggest concern about the Jazz is our ability or inability to properly rate NBA players and then how much we should or shouldn’t invest in their development. However, I’m not a fan of Niang or Bradley and I’m on the fence with Brantley.
The Conley trade concerns me because of how much we paid in players, salary, opportunity cost, etc. but also because I feel like the front office legitimately thought they were getting a Stocktonesque or Nashesque player or CP3 lite, when it is quite apparent from his career that Conley is more like a very expensive Sam Cassell or Goran Dragic past their primes.
 

Deron Williams

Well-Known Member
Good post.

Regular season stats are interesting, but they aren't truly relevant to the playoffs. I've been saying it since the 2018 OKC series - Don is unquestionably our most important player for the postseason.

Rudy played pretty well against Houston last year, but we almost got swept due to our lack of talent and Don not playing great. His best game was our win.

This year, Rudy played average by his standards and we took it to 7 games on Don's back. This was without our 2nd best scorer and Conley for 2 games (some might say 3....).

Don is at the level of those other guys mentioned. The roster around them is the difference minus maybe Doncic. Last time I checked, Doncic hasn't won anything.


Sent from my SM-G970U using JazzFanz mobile app
Yes, let’s take a 7 game sample against what was the second worst defense in the NBA after Christmas, a sample driven by unsustainably hot shooting, and decide that’s the “real” Donovan. Not the 60 games prior to that. Not the 2 years of below average TS% and EFG% before this season. Just this 7-game sample with no travel and no fans.

No one in their right mind thinks Mitchell is on the same level as Harden, Doncic, Kawhi, etc. Gobert, by RPM, is a better second banana than any of those players had this year. And yet Don couldn’t beat the Nuggets or win more than one game vs. Houston the two prior years.

Gobert, Conley, Ingles, Bogey, Royce, Clarkson more or less stacks up with anyone else in the West. The difference is Mitchell isn’t close to Harden/Doncic/Kawhi/LeBron.
 

NUMBERICA

Well-Known Member
Elite scoring guards will victimize almost any defender. You need to take away their favorite options, and you need to do this with a few different schemes. One of those looks—and this is especially true with Murray—is a good switching scheme. Another is just putting a variety of individual defenders on him. There are others.

We may not have had the arsenal of defenders to really slow him down, but I think we had enough (or should have had enough) in the bag to get the series win. I am unsatisfied with the level of experimentation and adjustments we saw from Quin.
Yeah, we **** the bed so bad. Didn't try **** until game 7. He was so comfortable against us because the extent of our experimentation came with Joe getting ****en COOKED in game 1. Trapping and rotating worked really well, as did fighting through screens and starting to go aggressively under some of them.

I get the downsides of physical defense, but the Jazz didn't even try that until game 7. They could've been mixing all kinds of coverages the entire series and chose not to.
 

NUMBERICA

Well-Known Member
Yes, let’s take a 7 game sample against what was the second worst defense in the NBA after Christmas, a sample driven by unsustainably hot shooting, and decide that’s the “real” Donovan. Not the 60 games prior to that. Not the 2 years of below average TS% and EFG% before this season. Just this 7-game sample with no travel and no fans.

No one in their right mind thinks Mitchell is on the same level as Harden, Doncic, Kawhi, etc. Gobert, by RPM, is a better second banana than any of those players had this year. And yet Don couldn’t beat the Nuggets or win more than one game vs. Houston the two prior years.

Gobert, Conley, Ingles, Bogey, Royce, Clarkson more or less stacks up with anyone else in the West. The difference is Mitchell isn’t close to Harden/Doncic/Kawhi/LeBron.
Lol. Nah. Not at all. Who is our ANTHONY DAVIS? Or Paul George?

We had seven legit NBA rotation players WHEN HEALTHY. Not 12. Not ten. Not even eight. We have **** for depth, and the LA teams have two marquee players while we have one. To your point, our marquee player isn't Lebron or Harden or Kawhi or Luka.

Roster-wise, we just are not that close.
 

Deron Williams

Well-Known Member
Lol. Nah. Not at all. Who is our ANTHONY DAVIS? Or Paul George?

We had seven legit NBA rotation players WHEN HEALTHY. Not 12. Not ten. Not even eight. We have **** for depth, and the LA teams have two marquee players and while we have one and to your point, our marquee player isn't Lebron or Harden or Kawhi of Luka.

Roster-wise, we just are not that close.
Again, by RPM, Gobert was better than both George and Davis this year.

Davis, Kuzma, Green, Caruso, KCP, Howard, Morris is pretty clearly worse than Gobert, Ingles, Clarkson, Conley, Bogey, Bradley.

And yet the Lakers won 8 more games.90% of the difference is LeBron vs Mitchell, not 2-8 on the roster.
 

NUMBERICA

Well-Known Member
Again, by RPM, Gobert was better than both George and Davis this year.

Davis, Kuzma, Green, Caruso, KCP, Howard, Morris is pretty clearly worse than Gobert, Ingles, Clarkson, Conley, Bogey, Bradley.

And yet the Lakers won 8 more games.90% of the difference is LeBron vs Mitchell, not 2-8 on the roster.
Get real. Davis is the best player/fit that Lebron has ever played with, and is an MVP talent playing as a second-fiddle to the greatest player since MJ. They play defense 1-5 and have no shortage of size at every position. In case you missed it, they absolutely spank the Jazz when they play. The Jazz have handled Lebron teams just fine over the years, better than most, actually. It ain't just Lebron, the Lakers are ****ing great.
 

FAILED STATE

Well-Known Member
It’s too bad that Marcus Smart is such a tough acquisition right now. He’d really be an instant fix to a lot of what ails us. What’s frustrating is that I’ll bet we could have traded Favors for him a year or more ago.
 

Handlogten's Heros

Well-Known Member
2019 Award Winner
It’s too bad that Marcus Smart is such a tough acquisition right now. He’d really be an instant fix to a lot of what ails us. What’s frustrating is that I’ll bet we could have traded Favors for him a year or more ago.
Shaq has some Marcus Smart disruptor to him. Doesn't have the intensity or the ******** though... those are on a different level.

I'm telling DL... go get Shaq on the cheap.
 

Deron Williams

Well-Known Member
Get real. Davis is the best player/fit that Lebron has ever played with, and is an MVP talent playing as a second-fiddle to the greatest player since MJ. They play defense 1-5 and have no shortage of size at every position. In case you missed it, they absolutely spank the Jazz when they play. The Jazz have handled Lebron teams just fine over the years, better than most, actually. It ain't just Lebron, the Lakers are ****ing great.
If the Jazz had the option to trade Mitchell for LeBron or keep Don and flip 2-12 with the Lakers this year, only an absolute idiot would pick the latter.

Mitchell isn’t close to a top 5 player. That is the primary difference between Utah and the real contenders. It’s ridiculous that you act like minimum guys like Howard, Caruso and Rondo are some incredible supporting cast driving LA’s success. Ooooh...they have “size everywhere.”

Weird how Harden won a playoff series without Westbrook playing 4 games. I guess it’s because Eric Gordon is better than Gobert? And House beats Ingles? And I guess Rivers dominates Conley.
 

DasJazz

Well-Known Member
If the Jazz had the option to trade Mitchell for LeBron or keep Don and flip 2-12 with the Lakers this year, only an absolute idiot would pick the latter.

Mitchell isn’t close to a top 5 player. That is the primary difference between Utah and the real contenders. It’s ridiculous that you act like minimum guys like Howard, Caruso and Rondo are some incredible supporting cast driving LA’s success. Ooooh...they have “size everywhere.”

Weird how Harden won a playoff series without Westbrook playing 4 games. I guess it’s because Eric Gordon is better than Gobert? And House beats Ingles? And I guess Rivers dominates Conley.
I'd be happy to take Gordon or House over the shell that is now Ingles.
 

jom2003

Well-Known Member
Davis, Kuzma, Green, Caruso, KCP, Howard, Morris is pretty clearly worse than Gobert, Ingles, Clarkson, Conley, Bogey, Bradley.
Well, first I'm not so sure about this statement.

Second, NBA teams aren't compared purely on the ability of individual players my friend. it's not one on one pick-up basketball we are playing. Teams need to be judged based on how well these players complement each other.
 

l Abach l

Well-Known Member
Again, by RPM, Gobert was better than both George and Davis this year.

Davis, Kuzma, Green, Caruso, KCP, Howard, Morris is pretty clearly worse than Gobert, Ingles, Clarkson, Conley, Bogey, Bradley.

And yet the Lakers won 8 more games.90% of the difference is LeBron vs Mitchell, not 2-8 on the roster.
You would need a really solid backup Center. I like Favors but he cant play more than 20 mpg. If I thought he could that would be a solid lineup. A starting lineup of Mitchell, Brown, Bodie, Harris, Favors is good. If you picked up someone like Baynes I think that would be good.

I would also be down to take the risk of trying Conley for Blake Griffin. I think I would save Davis for another trade as well. I also like the Gobert for Wiggins and #2 pick trade option if that was available. Then using that pick to land a solid player.

But honestly if things are really okay between Mitchell and Gobert like is being reported I would be shocked if the team trades Gobert. We dont trade all-stars that want to be here away.
Would the pistons trade griffin?
 

infection

Well-Known Member
Staff member
2018 Award Winner
2019 Award Winner
Size, athleticism, rebounding, playmaking, and a little shooting at the 4.
I'd give you size, which may help on the offensive end, but he's not going to give us anything defensively, and you really need to look at his career trend on his rebounding, and if his shooting trends anything like it did the last year...
 

Ron Mexico

Well-Known Member
Contributor
I'd give you size, which may help on the offensive end, but he's not going to give us anything defensively, and you really need to look at his career trend on his rebounding, and if his shooting trends anything like it did the last year...
He played 14 games last year. So that sample size isn't much to look at.

He still is athletic and he still is an okay shooter. He still rebounds at a decent rate, but elite but better than any non center on our team. His health is a huge concern but we aren't trading Conley for a player without risk.
 

Ron Mexico

Well-Known Member
Contributor
Griffin is a good playmaker 4 as well. Something Snyder has really wanted. He also isn't someone you can switch a small guy onto. He can bully a small defender and punish teams for going small on him. His defense is not great in the regular season but in the playoffs he generally is passable.
 

David Stern

Well-Known Member
It’s too bad that Marcus Smart is such a tough acquisition right now. He’d really be an instant fix to a lot of what ails us. What’s frustrating is that I’ll bet we could have traded Favors for him a year or more ago.
We basically traded Favors for Bogey though, so you're not getting him in this scenario
 
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