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Obama Government Shutdown?

Because this topic seems to attract every possible apologist argument for the GOP's tactics re: this shutdown I'd love to hear how people justify this one: the reason the full house can't just vote on the Senate bill (a vote that would likely cause the Senate bill to pass) is because the GOP quietly passed a measure saying that only Eric Cantor or someone designated by Eric Cantor can actually bring a bill to reopen the government to the floor.

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/th...-change-that-guaranteed-a-shutdown?c=upworthy

Late on the night of Sept. 30, with the federal government just hours away from shutting down, House Republicans quietly made a small change to the House rules that blocked a potential avenue for ending the shutdown.

It went largely unnoticed at the time. But with the shutdown more than a week old and House Democrats searching for any legislative wiggle room to end it, the move looms large in retrospect in the minds of the minority party.

"What people don't know is that they rigged the rules of the House to keep the government shut down," Rep. Chris Van Hollen (D-MD), ranking member of the House Budget Committee, told TPM in an interview. "This is a blatant effort to make sure that the Senate bill did not come up for a vote."

Here's what happened.

The House and Senate were at an impasse on the night of Sept. 30. The House's then-most-recent ploy for extracting Obamacare concessions from Senate Democrats and the White House -- by eliminating health insurance subsidies for Congress members and their staffs -- had been rejected by the Senate. The 'clean' Senate spending bill was back in the House's court.

With less than two hours to midnight and shutdown, Speaker John Boehner's latest plan emerged. House Republicans would "insist" on their latest spending bill, including the anti-Obamacare provision, and request a conference with the Senate to resolve the two chambers' differences.

Under normal House rules, according to House Democrats, once that bill had been rejected again by the Senate, then any member of the House could have made a motion to vote on the Senate's bill. Such a motion would have been what is called "privileged" and entitled to a vote of the full House. At that point, Democrats say, they could have joined with moderate Republicans in approving the motion and then in passing the clean Senate bill, averting a shutdown.

But previously, House Republicans had made a small but hugely consequential move to block them from doing it.

Here's the rule in question:

When the stage of disagreement has been reached on a bill or resolution with House or Senate amendments, a motion to dispose of any amendment shall be privileged.
In other words, if the House and Senate are gridlocked as they were on the eve of the shutdown, any motion from any member to end that gridlock should be allowed to proceed. Like, for example, a motion to vote on the Senate bill. That's how House Democrats read it.

But the House Rules Committee voted the night of Sept. 30 to change that rule for this specific bill. They added language dictating that any motion "may be offered only by the majority Leader or his designee."

So unless House Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-VA) wanted the Senate spending bill to come to the floor, it wasn't going to happen. And it didn't.

"I've never seen this rule used. I'm not even sure they were certain we would have found it," a House Democratic aide told TPM. "This was an overabundance of caution on their part. 'We've got to find every single crack in the dam that water can get through and plug it.'"

Congressional historians agreed that it was highly unusual for the House to reserve such power solely for the leadership.

"I've never heard of anything like that before," Norm Ornstein, resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, told TPM.

"It is absolutely true that House rules tend to not have any explicit parliamentary rights guaranteed and narrowed to explicit party leaders," Sarah Binder, a congressional expert at the Brookings Institution, told TPM. "That's not typically how the rules are written."

Republican staff on the House Rules Committee did not respond to multiple requests for comment. But here's what House Rules Chairman Pete Sessions (R-TX) told Rep. Louise Slaughter (D-NY) when she raised those concerns before the rule change was approved.

"What we're attempting to do is to actually get our people together rather than trying to make a decision," Sessions said. "We're trying to actually have a conference and the gentlewoman knows that there are rules related to privileged motions that could take place almost effective immediately, and we're trying to go to conference."

"You know that there could be a privileged motion at any time...," Sessions continued as Slaughter continued to press the issue.

"To call for the vote on the Senate resolution," Slaughter interjected. "I think you've taken that away."

"I said you were correct. We took it away," Sessions said, "and the reason why is because we want to go to conference."

That meant that this happened:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Jd-iaYLO1A

Completely bizarre.
 
Kicky I get two things from that.

1. The House Repubs are jackwagons and untrustworthy. We already knew that.

2. The Dems do not, under any circumstances, want to be under Obamacare themselves.
 
Kicky I get two things from that.

1. The House Repubs are jackwagons and untrustworthy. We already knew that.

2. The Dems do not, under any circumstances, want to be under Obamacare themselves.

Both parties are untrustworthy. ACA was passed without one bi-partisan vote and the people were told you have to pass it to find out what's in it. **** that. If it is good for the masses then every member of congress, their staffers, and every member of the administration should also be part of it.
 
Kicky I get two things from that.

1. The House Repubs are jackwagons and untrustworthy. We already knew that.

2. The Dems do not, under any circumstances, want to be under Obamacare themselves.

But you can't say "Under Obamacare". You can't treat "Obamacare" like Medicaid or Medicare or your job's provided insurance options as it's NOT AN INSURANCE OPTION. Saying "I have Obamacare" when someone asks what health insurance you have is like saying "I have Trout/EJ Wells insurance" when asked what kind of auto insurance you have. "Obamacare" is fictional. It would, however, be safe to say that if you don't have insurance, the "Obamamarket" is your best option. Then you can get your rocks off on talking about how bad the site was/is, and totally blame Obama for it.

The only people that want to be at the "Obamamarket" are there because, well, it means they don't have insurance, or have private insurance that is more expensive than they want to pay. Not having insurance is a bad idea in general, but it makes not having insurance worse under the Affordable Care act because you get fined for not having insurance. So saying the dems do not, under any circumstances, want to be under Obamacare themselves is pretty obvious. Any sane person should not want to have to go to the market; they should want to have insurance they can afford already, or get insurance through their employer.

Should congress/government officials be exempt? Absolutely not. They should be required to have health insurance as well. But if their job provides it, they don't really need to go looking. Just like I don't need to go looking because my job provides me great insurance.

Yes, both sides are being unnecessarily contrary... the republicans are just looking a lot worse.
 
But you can't say "Under Obamacare". You can't treat "Obamacare" like Medicaid or Medicare or your job's provided insurance options as it's NOT AN INSURANCE OPTION. Saying "I have Obamacare" when someone asks what health insurance you have is like saying "I have Trout/EJ Wells insurance" when asked what kind of auto insurance you have. "Obamacare" is fictional. It would, however, be safe to say that if you don't have insurance, the "Obamamarket" is your best option. Then you can get your rocks off on talking about how bad the site was/is, and totally blame Obama for it.

The only people that want to be at the "Obamamarket" are there because, well, it means they don't have insurance, or have private insurance that is more expensive than they want to pay. Not having insurance is a bad idea in general, but it makes not having insurance worse under the Affordable Care act because you get fined for not having insurance. So saying the dems do not, under any circumstances, want to be under Obamacare themselves is pretty obvious. Any sane person should not want to have to go to the market; they should want to have insurance they can afford already, or get insurance through their employer.

Should congress/government officials be exempt? Absolutely not. They should be required to have health insurance as well. But if their job provides it, they don't really need to go looking. Just like I don't need to go looking because my job provides me great insurance.

Yes, both sides are being unnecessarily contrary... the republicans are just looking a lot worse.

Yes I can. Congress is not subject to that law. So they are not under Obamacare.
 
Yes I can. Congress is not subject to that law. So they are not under Obamacare.

False.

https://www.factcheck.org/2013/05/congress-and-an-exemption-from-obamacare/
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/09/27/is-congress-exempt-from-obamacare/2883635/
https://www.newrepublic.com/article/114284/congress-exempt-obamacare-latest-lie-wont-die

In short: A republican, in an a chess move to attempt to get the democrats to shutter at having to use the marketplaces, said "Great. Congress should be through the marketplace too." Dems were like "... we'll bite". Right now they have employer paid benefits (72% paid for by employer - the government). So now that congress has to use the market, what happens to that 72%? A ruling as stated to allow the government(their employer) to still cover that 72% for it's employees, even though they now have to go through the market.
 
I did not know that Roach. Glad to see DC be under it as well.
 
Because this topic seems to attract every possible apologist argument for the GOP's tactics re: this shutdown I'd love to hear how people justify this one: the reason the full house can't just vote on the Senate bill (a vote that would likely cause the Senate bill to pass) is because the GOP quietly passed a measure saying that only Eric Cantor or someone designated by Eric Cantor can actually bring a bill to reopen the government to the floor.

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/th...-change-that-guaranteed-a-shutdown?c=upworthy




That meant that this happened:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Jd-iaYLO1A

Completely bizarre.


So, Kicky, we need to vet you as something other than a partisan hack and a fundamentally dishonest person in your own right.

So how come no senator in the Senate can bring up any Amendment to the Senate version of the legislation affecting the government shutdown unless Harry Reid is on board with it?


If you want the repubs in the House to re-open "democracy", why not take the same stand and demand that the Senate do the same?
 
I did not know that Roach. Glad to see DC be under it as well.

Stoked, you need to check "Factcheck" and other apologists for the "progressives". The links cited did not actually address the issue. The issue is not whether the law as written gives an exemption, but whether President Obama outside of the law issued an exemption under executive disgression/administrative decision/executive order. I don't think Obama's "legislative powers" fall under the written law. . . . it's an issue of what goes on behind closed doors and within the enforcement of laws under the executive branch. . . .

The only difference between the two groups is that Congress has the political influence to get an exemption from the Administration while the thousands of working folks do not.

Read more: https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-...gressional-obamacare-exemptions#ixzz2htqjp5RP
Follow us: @thehill on Twitter | TheHill on Facebook
 
Stoked, you need to check "Factcheck" and other apologists for the "progressives". The links cited did not actually address the issue. The issue is not whether the law as written gives an exemption, but whether President Obama outside of the law issued an exemption under executive disgression/administrative decision/executive order. I don't think Obama's "legislative powers" fall under the written law. . . . it's an issue of what goes on behind closed doors and within the enforcement of laws under the executive branch. . . .

All this back door stuff is just another reason to distrust DC.
 
All this back door stuff is just another reason to distrust DC.

As far as I've heard via various commentators in the media or even radio talkshows, this issue came up last spring when congressional staffers/interns were realizing that they couldn't afford to keep their relatively low-paying jobs because they would have to be personally buying in under Obamacare. . . . cash out of their pockets making their personal budgets unworkable under their current pay.

You have to understand that these staffers/interns are actually sorta making some personal sacrifices in many instances to take these jobs, and they do so under a philosophy of it being something like an apprenticeship or foot int he door to start a career in government/politics.

I look at this under that light as something of a non-issue. Whatever their reasons for taking these jobs, their pay is already "in the marketplace" with their career objectives on the table as part of their benefits package. . .. and we the taxpayers are actually paying 100% of their pay and benefit package. If these folks bail from their jobs, our elected representatives will appropriate more money for their staffs and negotiate a pay/benefit package that will fill their needs for staff. . . . and we will still be paying 100% of that combo.
 
Stoked, you need to check "Factcheck" and other apologists for the "progressives". The links cited did not actually address the issue. The issue is not whether the law as written gives an exemption, but whether President Obama outside of the law issued an exemption under executive disgression/administrative decision/executive order. I don't think Obama's "legislative powers" fall under the written law. . . . it's an issue of what goes on behind closed doors and within the enforcement of laws under the executive branch. . . .

Come on now, babe, you got to be a little more thorough than that. The fact of this matter is members of the US Congress were specifically required to purchase care on the exchanges even though they previously had insurance. Now no other group of Americans were subject to such frivolities but we have this Senator Grassley fellow and now it is law and true.

With the situation as it were, the October deadline requiring Congress to purchase ACA from an exchange that was not yet up and running necessitated this exemption you speak of. The American people were not in need of such a waiver because they were not required to purchase insurance prior to the exchange being functional.

Your right wing spin is precisely the reason the US populace no longer looks upon the Tea Party with anything but disdain. They will stop at no lie when pushing their irrational rhetoric. As is always the case, the truth eventually shines through.
 
Come on now, babe, you got to be a little more thorough than that. The fact of this matter is members of the US Congress were specifically required to purchase care on the exchanges even though they previously had insurance. Now no other group of Americans were subject to such frivolities but we have this Senator Grassley fellow and now it is law and true.

With the situation as it were, the October deadline requiring Congress to purchase ACA from an exchange that was not yet up and running necessitated this exemption you speak of. The American people were not in need of such a waiver because they were not required to purchase insurance prior to the exchange being functional.

Your right wing spin is precisely the reason the US populace no longer looks upon the Tea Party with anything but disdain. They will stop at no lie when pushing their irrational rhetoric. As is always the case, the truth eventually shines through.

I'm willing to absorb this as credible just because you say so, pending further research which I lack time at this moment to do. Facts be what they may be, it still seems to me that the DC folks will take care of their own, and at our expense, one way or another.

Few of us outsiders. . . . outside the Beltway more or less. . . . have our hands on the levers of government to make things work out for us. Businesses en masse across the country are cutting hours for folks who used to have full-time jobs with some benefit package or another, moving them into postions without those benefits and into the class of folks who have to pay the tax themselves to pay for Obamacare.

Be careful about your anti-citizen rhetoric. Surely in our system the citizens do have an inferior knowledge base on which to discuss the problems and effects of government. Surely it is a learning process for me or anyone else to come up to speed with every effect of legislation, and surely we need legislators who actually give a rat's *** about what they are doing to us.
 
Stoked, you need to check "Factcheck" and other apologists for the "progressives". The links cited did not actually address the issue. The issue is not whether the law as written gives an exemption, but whether President Obama outside of the law issued an exemption under executive disgression/administrative decision/executive order. I don't think Obama's "legislative powers" fall under the written law. . . . it's an issue of what goes on behind closed doors and within the enforcement of laws under the executive branch. . . .

I'm not even sure you understand what you just said there, so I'm going to ask you to look at it from a different perspective.

Are you entirely sure that you don't think the government itself should cover benefits like any other employer? Yes, they get a hand in saying what is/isn't, but you can't argue that what they do is a full time job, even if they're awful at it.
 
I'm willing to absorb this as credible just because you say so, pending further research which I lack time at this moment to do. Facts be what they may be, it still seems to me that the DC folks will take care of their own, and at our expense, one way or another.

Your compliment is much appreciated. I will now proffer an additional notion for you to research if your interest is reasonably piqued.

Congress, from what I have been told and what little else I have gathered, had a health package full of bells and whistles that would make the "Cadillac" union plans blush. Forcing them onto Obamacare will in fact decrease their coverage and increase their out of pocket expenses.

If a pound of congressional flesh is what you're after, well, there you have a good seed to start sowing.


Few of us outsiders. . . . outside the Beltway more or less. . . . have our hands on the levers of government to make things work out for us. Businesses en masse across the country are cutting hours for folks who used to have full-time jobs with some benefit package or another, moving them into postions without those benefits and into the class of folks who have to pay the tax themselves to pay for Obamacare.

That is the downside, as everyone knew well enough in advance. You and I struck up a rather marginal discourse on the subject of not dealing with our issues prior to ACA, and I can't help but accept the consequences of our own refusals.

I also maintain, as communistic as I might be labeled, that if you force me to pay for the healthcare of others in need then I have the right to force them to pay into the system when they are capable of doing so. I maintain a similar work provision position for those on long term unemployment and expect you do as well, even though neither of us are going to see any move on that front any time soon.
 
Your compliment is much appreciated. I will now proffer an additional notion for you to research if your interest is reasonably piqued.

Congress, from what I have been told and what little else I have gathered, had a health package full of bells and whistles that would make the "Cadillac" union plans blush. Forcing them onto Obamacare will in fact decrease their coverage and increase their out of pocket expenses.

If a pound of congressional flesh is what you're after, well, there you have a good seed to start sowing.




That is the downside, as everyone knew well enough in advance. You and I struck up a rather marginal discourse on the subject of not dealing with our issues prior to ACA, and I can't help but accept the consequences of our own refusals.

I also maintain, as communistic as I might be labeled, that if you force me to pay for the healthcare of others in need then I have the right to force them to pay into the system when they are capable of doing so. I maintain a similar work provision position for those on long term unemployment and expect you do as well, even though neither of us are going to see any move on that front any time soon.

I do not consider either one of those communistic. I agree.
 
[
QUOTE=franklin;676036]Your compliment is much appreciated. I will now proffer an additional notion for you to research if your interest is reasonably piqued.

Congress, from what I have been told and what little else I have gathered, had a health package full of bells and whistles that would make the "Cadillac" union plans blush. Forcing them onto Obamacare will in fact decrease their coverage and increase their out of pocket expenses.

If a pound of congressional flesh is what you're after, well, there you have a good seed to start sowing.

a real free-marketer would not blush at government paying the best possible overall compensation on the theory that they need the best people. The reason I'm not such a thinker is just because I think that for a "market" to work, it has to be free of significant "corruption", using this last term specifically to describe failures of "arm's length" contracts which are actually determined by market principles. People in our government have a lot of ways to feather their own nests and butter their own bread a lot better than the folks outside of government can ordinarily do. They also have the power to tax, with no brake on that power except our usually uninformed perception of things and our level of compliance training/submission to government authority/voting competence.

when you use the term "communistic" around me, please remember I've had good friends who were real communists. .. ideologues who treated Das Kapital like a bible. . . . who hated our statists/socialist/phony communists with an undying antipathy and fought them like they were Satan incarnate. . . . We all throw our terminogy around alike clowns doing some juggling show that nobody can really follow with anything better than stupefied amazement. . . .

I can't see you as a "communist" while you effectively assert a need for good management of public affairs. You strike me as more of communicator seeking to promote public welfare on the strength of good ideas. That might be what we have in common.
 
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I'm not even sure you understand what you just said there, so I'm going to ask you to look at it from a different perspective.

Are you entirely sure that you don't think the government itself should cover benefits like any other employer? Yes, they get a hand in saying what is/isn't, but you can't argue that what they do is a full time job, even if they're awful at it.

OK, sir. I've decided to sidestep the blow if you mean to defend "Factcheck" or any other pet source of information bearing an established bias and an inherently false claim to a name. I understand that partisans cloak themselves with the colors they need to disarm our sensibilities, whether they are "fer" or "agin" anything.

You're entitled to your doubts about whether I understand what I say, as I may doubt your understanding of what I am trying to say, or your willingness to consider it.

In response to this question, I think I did cover this very well in one of my posts between the one you're responding to, and this one. I think this issue is irrelevant in regard to the goodness or badness of Obamacare, or the "government shutdown" which this thread is supposedly about. The pay and benefits of congressmen is not a market-determined expense either before or after the Obamacare or ACA legislation. Congressmen themselves vote on their pay, with only a token effort at separating the self-interest of the politicians from their power to appropriate public funds to themselves. It is only the perception of voters that has any effect on their impulse to take care of themselves.

This is true without regard to party or which "side" the politicians are claiming to favor.

They, and their staff, are not "paying" anything. . . . we are paying for everything they get.

This was true before the ACA, and is true now, and always will be true. . . . until they start refusing to take pay. On that point, it is also true that some politicians might be earning better money in the private sector, but those cases today are very rare, the only exceptions being very wealthy persons whose private businesses and interests are most likely getting a good suck on the public teat as well.

You are right that it is a good public policy to keep our politicians and their staff on some plan of medical care, maybe even a premium plan, while they are in our "pay". But it is a better policy for them to decide that they are no better than we are, and not seek special or favored treatment. Then maybe we would not be fools to re-elect them.

As things stand, we have gerrymander political districts all across this country, where Reps and Dems politicians have made a deal between themselves, giving themselves "safe" seats and reducing our ability to displace them from public office. Under this circumstance, it is high time we citizens should demand accountability from them, and take a very critical look at what they are doing.
 
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Here is a question for you all.

Does this shutdown and looming debt defualt change the way you are organizing your finances? Are you taking any extra measures to prepare for that rainy day? Especially since the reported Senate plan only kicks the can down the road till after Christmas.

It is for me. It is leading me to storing food, goods, money and other essential items.
 
I'm just glad its look like a deal is going to get passed. I can't be out of a job.

I just got off work, and was told if there is no deal we are officially closed as of tomorrow. That came straight out of the blue.

There were maybes, and some rumors, but bam it came hard and fast today. Tomorrow no deal, no job. So I hope it sticks as it's looking right now.
 
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