Obama Government Shutdown?

[Harambe]

https://news.yahoo.com/government-shutdown-backfires-gop-says-democrats-now-guilty-133154607.html



Yeah, it's always just the republicans. The democrats are guiltless in every way shape and form. I am sure glad we settled that we were not allowed to talk about both sides playing the same game, since obviously it was only the teabaggers doing it. It is the same song and dance as it has been, and yes, our legislature needs major reform.

A little upsetting, to say the least. This could be over with and done today, maybe even last Friday, but someone's trying to get more crap added to the bill.

There's a part of me that wants to scream "They started it" and "This is what you've been giving the Dem's", but the realistic side understands this is not going to help.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

What do you all think of this article from Thomas Sowell?

Thomas Sowell (/soʊl/; born June 30, 1930) is an American economist, social theorist, political philosopher, and author. He is currently the Rose and Milton Friedman Senior Fellow on Public Policy at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University. According to Larry D. Nachman in Commentary magazine, he is considered a leading representative of the Chicago school of economics.[1]

Sowell was born in North Carolina, but grew up in Harlem, New York. He dropped out of high school, and served in the United States Marine Corps during the Korean War. He received a bachelor's degree from Harvard University in 1958 and a master's degree from Columbia University in 1959. In 1968, he earned his Doctorate in Economics from the University of Chicago.

(taken from Wikipedia)

https://jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell100413.php3#.UlwvoBAkJ8E

Even when it comes to something as basic, and apparently as simple and straightforward, as the question of who shut down the federal government, there are diametrically opposite answers, depending on whether you talk to Democrats or to Republicans.

There is really nothing complicated about the facts. The Republican-controlled House of Representatives voted all the money required to keep all government activities going — except for ObamaCare.

This is not a matter of opinion. You can check the Congressional Record.

(just a taste, read the rest from the link)

 

[franklin]

https://news.yahoo.com/government-shutdown-backfires-gop-says-democrats-now-guilty-133154607.html

Yeah, it's always just the republicans. The democrats are guiltless in every way shape and form. I am sure glad we settled that we were not allowed to talk about both sides playing the same game, since obviously it was only the teabaggers doing it. It is the same song and dance as it has been, and yes, our legislature needs major reform.

You're only telling one half of the story. The dems and repubs are currently negotiating over long term entitlement reforms in exchange for sequester reversals. That happens to be the best economic policy in the current environment as well as the best thing for the nation long term.

How anyone can get worked up over that is a complete head scratcher.

What do you all think of this article from Thomas Sowell?

That would be like blaming the republicans for a shutdown if the democrats gave them a bill agreeing to fund all of the government as long as a hand gun ban was attached to it. Sowell may technically be correct but it's a pretty asinine way to play the blame game IMO.

I always enjoy Sowell because he's a true genius, but he's also an ideologue. As such, he's not capable of conveying anything that's not highly slanted. You'll never find any truth in anything he writes.

 

[franklin]

https://news.yahoo.com/government-shutdown-backfires-gop-says-democrats-now-guilty-133154607.html



Yeah, it's always just the republicans. The democrats are guiltless in every way shape and form. I am sure glad we settled that we were not allowed to talk about both sides playing the same game, since obviously it was only the teabaggers doing it. It is the same song and dance as it has been, and yes, our legislature needs major reform.

You're still mad that I credited some extremists for getting exactly what they campaigned on?

It's been said several times that it's not an anti-dem or anti-repub thing, but here you are trolling it again.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

That would be like blaming the republicans for a shutdown if the democrats gave them a bill agreeing to fund all of the government as long as a hand gun ban was attached to it. Sowell may technically be correct but it's a pretty asinine way to play the blame game IMO.

I always enjoy Sowell because he's a true genius, but he's also an ideologue. As such, he's not capable of conveying anything that's not highly slanted. You'll never find any truth in anything he writes.

So you are saying there is no way to approve a partial budget or funding of things we need? The Dems are afraid if a partial budget went through without Obamacare that there would be no motivation by the house to work on figuring it out together... so the Repubs are sending in budgets without Obamacare hoping to either avoid it all together, or to delay it and hash it out. The Dems are denying anything without Obamacare funding because if they approved anything less they would not have any leverage. Standstill, both sides duking it out.

So in essence you are saying both sides are being morans and trying to get their way no matter how it hurts the rest of the US citizens?

 

[franklin]

So you are saying there is no way to approve a partial budget or funding of things we need? The Dems are afraid if a partial budget went through without Obamacare that there would be no motivation by the house to work on figuring it out together... so the Repubs are sending in budgets without Obamacare hoping to either avoid it all together, or to delay it and hash it out. The Dems are denying anything without Obamacare funding because if they approved anything less they would not have any leverage. Standstill, both sides duking it out.

So in essence you are saying both sides are being morans and trying to get their way no matter how it hurts the rest of the US citizens?

I have no problems owning that stance.

In this instance, the dems are not attaching items to the budget that are guaranteed to be D.O.A. Republicans are strategically forcing a "no" vote then playing this silly blame game like they are not the root cause. Americans aren't buying it and the republicans are hurting for their silly antics.

If they want to negotiate aspects of Obamacare then they should do their job and put up a funding bill with demands attached. They're refusing to negotiate at all on Obamacare and killing the legislative process by doing so. I'll reiterate, this is exactly what the Tea Party ran on, and they're currently bragging to their constituents for shutting the govt. down and then blame the democrats out the other side of their mouth.

I'm more or less a lifetime republican and was against Obamacare, and don't see why these antics from the extremes of the GOP are being defended.



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I'm baffled when republicans are still pretending to not be using the shutdown as the final measure to stop Obamacare when stopping Obamacare at all costs is a party litmus test. How can you run on this and then honestly tell me you're not responsible? You want to stop it now own up to stopping Obamacare at all costs. Nothing wrong with being honest about it. We would be if it wasn't going to cost us votes.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

I have no problems owning that stance.

In this instance, the dems are not attaching items to the budget that are guaranteed to be D.O.A. Republicans are strategically forcing a "no" vote then playing this silly blame game like they are not the root cause. Americans aren't buying it and the republicans are hurting for their silly antics.

If they want to negotiate aspects of Obamacare then they should do their job and put up a funding bill with demands attached. They're refusing to negotiate at all on Obamacare and killing the legislative process by doing so. I'll reiterate, this is exactly what the Tea Party ran on, and they're currently bragging to their constituents for shutting the govt. down and then blame the democrats out the other side of their mouth.

I'm more or less a lifetime republican and was against Obamacare, and don't see why these antics from the extremes of the GOP are being defended.



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I'm baffled when republicans are still pretending to not be using the shutdown as the final measure to stop Obamacare when stopping Obamacare at all costs is a party litmus test. How can you run on this and then honestly tell me you're not responsible? You want to stop it now own up to stopping Obamacare at all costs. Nothing wrong with being honest about it. We would be if it wasn't going to cost us votes.

In most instances my stance is somewhere between the Repubs and Dems, but I seem to agree more often on some things with a Repub stance than a Dem stance. I just try to sift through the crap and the fact that everyone has an angle and find for myself the truth that is going on. I am not encouraged with what I see from either side.

I see the Repubs refusing to fund Obamacare, and the Dems refusing to accept any sort of funding that does not include Obamacare. I see the blame game going both ways. I see the Federal Government closing things down intentionally and during the shutdown finding ways to make it hurt the citizens instead of ease the pain... in order to point more blame at the Repubs. I honestly see them both at fault, I see no give in either, and I see things getting worse and worse as time goes on. All in the name of power. Don't even try to tell me any of this is in the best interests of the citizens of the U.S.A. Hatfield's and McCoy's on a national scale, zero give from either side, and a do anything to hurt the other side attitude. Forgotten is the fact that both sides are American citizens and that we all have more in common than we have to argue about.

 

[franklin]

In most instances my stance is somewhere between the Repubs and Dems, but I seem to agree more often on some things with a Repub stance than a Dem stance. I just try to sift through the crap and the fact that everyone has an angle and find for myself the truth that is going on. I am not encouraged with what I see from either side.

I see the Repubs refusing to fund Obamacare, and the Dems refusing to accept any sort of funding that does not include Obamacare. I see the blame game going both ways. I see the Federal Government closing things down intentionally and during the shutdown finding ways to make it hurt the citizens instead of ease the pain... in order to point more blame at the Repubs. I honestly see them both at fault, I see no give in either, and I see things getting worse and worse as time goes on. All in the name of power. Don't even try to tell me any of this is in the best interests of the citizens of the U.S.A. Hatfield's and McCoy's on a national scale, zero give from either side, and a do anything to hurt the other side attitude. Forgotten is the fact that both sides are American citizens and that we all have more in common than we have to argue about.

Great post.

Politics is frustrating; I come from a school of thought that thinks politics is going well when nobody is happy. That's when the govt. shuts down and we finally hammer out important things that we've ignored for decades. 30+ years of neglect culminating in a few short weeks of compromise should be celebrated instead of demonized. *Guilty as charged*

The stress of it all sucks but it's also gives me hope for the future where most become discouraged by it. Not getting everything we want is part of life, and life goes on.

As far as things getting ever worse, well, Mr. Spazz, I'm going to point you back to an optimist whose teachings had a huge impact on my philosophy: "Cynics do not contribute, skeptics do not create, doubters do not achieve.". Realizing the good in presidents, senators, and industry tycoons who we once idealized goes a long ways. #ramble

 

[Jazz Spazz]

Great post.

Politics is frustrating; I come from a school of thought that thinks politics is going well when nobody is happy. That's when the govt. shuts down and we finally hammer out important things that we've ignored for decades. 30+ years of neglect culminating in a few short weeks of compromise should be celebrated instead of demonized. *Guilty as charged*

The stress of it all sucks but it's also gives me hope for the future where most become discouraged by it. Not getting everything we want is part of life, and life goes on.

As far as things getting ever worse, well, Mr. Spazz, I'm going to point you back to an optimist whose teachings had a huge impact on my philosophy: "Cynics do not contribute, skeptics do not create, doubters do not achieve.". Realizing the good in presidents, senators, and industry tycoons who we once idealized goes a long ways. #ramble

Good point. I try to be optimistic about most things, I just have a really rough time doing so when politics is the topic. Definitely something I can improve on. I do feel that in order for progress to be made there will need to be a "ground zero" moment when it comes to our government and situation as a whole. Tough to stay positive when all signs point to little or no progress and only a strand of hope that a ground zero moment will actually result in something good vs more of a power grab.

 

[GVC]

As far as things getting ever worse, well, Mr. Spazz, I'm going to point you back to an optimist whose teachings had a huge impact on my philosophy: "Cynics do not contribute, skeptics do not create, doubters do not achieve.". Realizing the good in presidents, senators, and industry tycoons who we once idealized goes a long ways. #ramble

You don't actually believe that, do you? What is it you do for a living again?

 

[Jazz Spazz]

You don't actually believe that, do you? What is it you do for a living again?

Hey, he sold me. Just signed up for Amway, I'm going big, he's in my upline.

 

[LogGrad98]

You're still mad that I credited some extremists for getting exactly what they campaigned on?

It's been said several times that it's not an anti-dem or anti-repub thing, but here you are trolling it again.

Have you read any of your posts in this thread, including the ones vilifying and disparaging anyone who dared point out that both sides had a hand in all the **** raining down on this country now? And here is proof of both sides doing whatever they can to **** everyone over but suddenly that was your position to begin with. Troll, thy name is franklin.

 

[The Midnight]

Some good news today....

 

[franklin]

You don't actually believe that, do you? What is it you do for a living again?

Absolutely. 100%.

Are you confusing life philosophy with scientific skepticism? Those two traits are a great pairing in the greatest minds in history. No reason for skeptical Martin Luther to nail his thesis to the door of a cathedral unless he thought it would lead to progress.

 

[GVC]

Are you confusing life philosophy with scientific skepticism?

Doubt and skepticism can play important roles in life philosophy, no?

Those two traits are a great pairing in the greatest minds in history.

Of course. A willingness to work and belief in success don't often lead to innovation and progress without some prior doubt/skepticism.

No reason for skeptical Martin Luther to nail his thesis to the door of a cathedral unless he thought it would lead to progress.

Without the skepticism, he'd have had no reason to do anything at all.


I know what you were getting at, but that quote is terrible. At best, it gives us an example of how far we've come in education (given that that dude was a 19th century educator).

 

[franklin]

Doubt and skepticism can play important roles in life philosophy, no?


Of course. A willingness to work and belief in success don't often lead to innovation and progress without some prior doubt/skepticism.

Without the skepticism, he'd have had no reason to do anything at all.


I know what you were getting at, but that quote is terrible. At best, it gives us an example of how far we've come in education (given that that dude was a 19th century educator).

Context and audience matters though.

My view is that optimism in a better future leading to work [which ultimately requires that frame of mind] is a good thing. I found that quote refreshing against the typical end-of-the-world-is-imminent Christian attitude that seems to dominate US culture.

If you want an appeal to authority, the best investors we know of have expressed the same attitude (Buffett and Lynch, among the many real entrepreneurs). It's a situational philosophy, not suitable for those outside current western democracy.

 

[GVC]

Context and audience matters though.

What is the context/audience?

I found that quote refreshing against the typical end-of-the-world-is-imminent Christian attitude that seems to dominate US culture.

Ah...using guilt to motivate doubters to contribute. A bit cynical, no? Why not encourage participation/action if that's what you're trying to sell?


But whatever, we agree that idle cynicism is of little to no value. Sorry for hijacking the thread.

 

[babe]

Absolutely. 100%.

Are you confusing life philosophy with scientific skepticism? Those two traits are a great pairing in the greatest minds in history. No reason for skeptical Martin Luther to nail his thesis to the door of a cathedral unless he thought it would lead to progress.

I just had to bite on this one. I don't think Martin Luther was "skeptical". He was a both-feet-in-the-fire believer. He believed the Catholic Church could improve by returning to a scriptural practice of the faith.

He did not want to start a new Church, he wanted his Church to live up to the Bible.

On the side of his being "skeptical" he was definitely someone who had to find the answers to his questions for himself, and definitely willing to take a stand when he thought he had an answer, or something that people needed to understand.

It was not necessarily a rebel who would post something on the cathedral door. This was a common way of communicating, and it was a time when there was an emerging elite set of intellectuals who were discussing all kinds of stuff. Martin Luther was a scholar and priest, with a position in a startup college as well as a member of a particular order of the Catholic Church, with a mentor inside that order who did encourage and direct him in his scriptural scholarship.

It was only the intransigence of the Pope and other officials concerned about their cash cow indulgences and the system of buying positions in the government and church through "contributions" that thought they could squeeze him back into his little box that "created" the necessity for and the popularity of the Lutheran Church.

 

[LogGrad98]

 

[Nate505]

https://news.yahoo.com/government-shutdown-backfires-gop-says-democrats-now-guilty-133154607.html



Yeah, it's always just the republicans. The democrats are guiltless in every way shape and form. I am sure glad we settled that we were not allowed to talk about both sides playing the same game, since obviously it was only the teabaggers doing it. It is the same song and dance as it has been, and yes, our legislature needs major reform.

It would be nice if they got a deal done, but I will admit seeing the GOP take it on the chin is the only satisfying thing about this whole mess. Seeing the Dems suffer a bit too is an added bonus. But from a political standpoint the GOP is one pile of failure.