Official Utah/Minnesota/Philadelphia Pick Watch

[Handlogten's Heros]

I take that as a yes for the lying part? The FO has denied that making us worse was a factor in why they made that trade. Also Danny himself has directly on the record called BS on him ever tanking.

What is he supposed to say??? Yeah we are tanking this bitch!!!

 

[HermanG]

Dude it’s not some elaborate tank plan where he gets us to bottom five and will resort to violence if needed.


You have no idea how tanking works apparently. It isn’t an elaborate plan that everyone is in on. Players play… coaches coach. You remove players that can help win more games… simple as that. Does it always work… no… sometimes plans change.

It is the opposite. You call every move a tanking move almost as if your reputation or something depends on it. Many levels to tanking.. stealth tanking. Huge conspiracy theorist.

When someone offers an alternative explanation you dismiss it without actually rebutting it.

When FO says they are not tanking, you say they lie.

The team is still fighting to win every game, yet you claim the tank is on.

And you never answered my question. How are we using the tanking talk to fuel us all year if its actually true?

I'm gonna spoil a good trap now.. But my follow up question to this was:
Do you think you are better in tune with our FO than our players?

What in the literal hell is this? What business utopia do you live in? It’s not some evil plan it’s simple executing a strategy and not letting competitors in on your plans or keeping them guessing. I know a thing or two on how business operates… business partners align insofar as it is in their best interest to do so. As soon as paths split the relationship will change. There is just as much lying cheating cutthroat behavior as there has ever been. Good hell look at the scary **** social media companies do with information. You can’t be this naive.

Thats a strong defensive reaction. Also what social media companies have to do with managing basketball? Its B2C and we are talking B2B in a business where relationships matter more than in most other businesses. My post was provokative and exaggarated, but Im surprised it pushed you this far.

Yes he reveals everything to everyone cuz it’s honorable and nice. We are talking about a guy that wouldn’t even grant us a ****ing trade exception after he took our all star. He had IT recruiting Gordo while he was simultaneously looking to trade him for Kyrie cuz he knew the guy was broken.

Being honest when speaking to media and revealing everything are the same thing? That is just silly, why would you say that?

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Not really sure what the argument is fully, but the Jazz arent tanking.

If they were tanking, they'd be tanking deals to get rid of Kelly Olynyk and Clarkson for 2nd round picks and they didnt. They arent fully trying to win right now, but I dont think the moves Danny has made have anything to do with making the team worse.

 

[HermanG]

Watched the game last night and have to dispute some takes regarding Conley. Sure he was 0-6 last night, big deal, still a plus player with six assists and two steals. The big improvement however is more organic and involves the resurgence of Rudy Gobert. Nothing but praise from the talking heads regarding the playmaking talents of Conley and what it means to Gobert. Said there’s a new skip in Rudy’s step since Conley hit town and it’s so obvious to see. Talking about him knowing exactly where to give him the ball followed by Conley himself giving a clinic with a few beautiful assists to the big man.

Bigs must be fed to get going. And Rudy looked like Allstar DPOY Rudy last night with 17 pts, 19 rbs and 3 blocks - he made life for Porzingis particularly difficult but also affected Beal big time. (From a fan’s perspective, it’s nice to see Rudy not continually getting shut out on the pick and roll.) Some absolutely filthy alley oops from Conley to Gobert last night. After the huge win in Dallas (1st game for Conley), where Rudy went 9/9 for 21 pts and 14 boards, +17.

Last night’s loss was nothing to do with Conley or Rudy’s play but more to do with poor coaching, an inconsistent superstar in Edwards and some bad luck. If Kuzma doesn’t make that desperation three with less than a minute (as I recall) the Wolves hang on for the win. Things just snowballed from there.

I didnt watch that game, but nice to hear Conley is doing fine. I can buy Ant being inconsistent easily as he was that earlier this season when I watched some of their games.

Hopefully he will keep them as a disconnected team and they fall out of the playoffs and gift us a higher pick.

 

[HermanG]

Not really sure what the argument is fully, but the Jazz arent tanking.

If they were tanking, they'd be tanking deals to get rid of Kelly Olynyk and Clarkson for 2nd round picks and they didnt. They arent fully trying to win right now, but I dont think the moves Danny has made have anything to do with making the team worse.

Its just us butting heads about tanking and the honesty of our FO.

I shouldnt argue with @Handlogten's Heros since we both write long posts that start escalating in length so it gets unbearable for others lol.

This one was my fault 100% as I called him out for his tanking comments. Should have let it slide tbh.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

It is the opposite. You call every move a tanking move almost as if your reputation or something depends on it. Many levels to tanking.. stealth tanking. Huge conspiracy theorist.

Its not true at all... I don't call every move a tanking move... quite literally have said the opposite at times. You are just making **** up.

When someone offers an alternative explanation you dismiss it without actually rebutting it.

I rebutt... some people don't accept or move the goal post or just offer their alternative explanation. Playing the young guys and seeing what they have has very clearly been a method of tanking... it doesn't just have to be about tanking... it can also be exactly what it is... but it will lead to more losing almost always. There has been exactly one GM who has been direct about tanking and what he was doing... the league literally ended up removing him from his job and flattened lotto odds because of it. No one would ever even hint that they were tanking ever and it is in their best interest to strongly deny doing anything that would hint at tanking.

When FO says they are not tanking, you say they lie.

Whether they are tanking or not or lying or not I simply provided examples of how I judge actions and not words. Like when they say they are building around Don and want to keep him yet they are negotiating serious deals to trade him with multiple teams. Call it lying or just being disingenuous or telling part of the truth that is most flattering.

The team is still fighting to win every game, yet you claim the tank is on.

Players play and coaches coach... it isn't that hard to understand.

And you never answered my question. How are we using the tanking talk to fuel us all year if its actually true?

Did the player put it on a poster board and slap it every night before hitting the court? Or is that something they say. Just like when dudes are like "this is for all the haters". If there were tanking rumors or not this season I would promise you it wouldn't change our win loss record at all.

I'm gonna spoil a good trap now.. But my follow up question to this was:
Do you think you are better in tune with our FO than our players?

Maybe? why is this even relevant? Players and front offices aren't always aligned and even Danny said yesterday that their goals might bump up against each other... he tells players he is out looking for someone better than they are cuz that's his job.

Thats a strong defensive reaction. Also what social media companies have to do with managing basketball? Its B2C and we are talking B2B in a business where relationships matter more than in most other businesses. My post was provokative and exaggarated, but Im surprised it pushed you this far.

You painted this utopia where business no longer look out for their best interests and hold hands and skip through the forest so everyone can win. Businesses have always worked together whether its B2C or B2B... I literally live and work in the B2B world and have made a great living there. Nothing I said was incorrect. Businesses play nice if there are benefits to both parties. Once there are not benefits the relationships change. With companies that have direct competing interests they only work together if they have to... and no one shares any extra information they don't have to. Danny has some seriously high stakes high pressure negotiations he handles... why would he want the other team he negotiates with to know the complete truth?

Being honest when speaking to media and revealing everything are the same thing? That is just silly, why would you say that?

You are essentially telling me what Danny tells us is true and we should trust it. I parts of it can be true... but he doesn't have to tell the whole story. Its okay to fill in the blanks... he isn't going to do it for you.

When he says "we want to see the young guys play". What does that mean? It means they want to see what they have... that is true. It also means they are fine with the consequences of that action... and they are smart right? So they will have considered those consequences. What are the consequences of playing young players who clearly weren't as good as the players in front of them?

But what happens if Danny says... "we want to play the young players... and we were fine with losing a few extra games to help our draft considerations". The reveal gets league attention. That is why we fill in the blanks or hold actions above words.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Not really sure what the argument is fully, but the Jazz arent tanking.

If they were tanking, they'd be tanking deals to get rid of Kelly Olynyk and Clarkson for 2nd round picks and they didnt. They arent fully trying to win right now, but I dont think the moves Danny has made have anything to do with making the team worse.

DA is value based. He couldn't get enough value for them. They won't make moves just to get worse... that isn't how tanking works practically. The move they made very much decreases our ability to be competitive this year. Just because they didn't make every possible move they could have to make us less competitive doesn't mean they aren't tanking.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

The Conley, Malik, Vando move was a trade that returned value (though some here were really arguing it did not) but it wasn't such huge value that you couldn't pass it up. We valued the draft compensation over being competitive this year... that is tanking my friends. Doesn't mean we sell off every piece we have or have Ainge go club Lauri over the knee or tell Hardy he has to play two-way guys the rest of the way... that is not how tanking works.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

DA is value based. He couldn't get enough value for them. They won't make moves just to get worse... that isn't how tanking works practically. The move they made very much decreases our ability to be competitive this year. Just because they didn't make every possible move they could have to make us less competitive doesn't mean they aren't tanking.

If you arent trading vets who are essentially on expiring deals then you arent tanking IMO. I think if there was tanking playbook, trading vets on expiring deals (regardless of return) would be high up on the priority list.

I know this tanking thing exist on a spectrum. I would put our tank rank at 5, maybe a 6 at the highest.

1 being all out, making all the moves possible to win now, and 10 being Trust the Process style tanking.

I'm calling this team building style : Soft Reboot

 

[Elizah Huge]

The Conley, Malik, Vando move was a trade that returned value (though some here were really arguing it did not) but it wasn't such huge value that you couldn't pass it up. We valued the draft compensation over being competitive this year... that is tanking my friends. Doesn't mean we sell off every piece we have or have Ainge go club Lauri over the knee or tell Hardy he has to play two-way guys the rest of the way... that is not how tanking works.

It sounds like we really value that pick though. We added seconds and NAW to get it done.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Even when they traded Bogey, they didnt trade him for future assets, something that would be common in a tank move.

They traded him for a guy they wanted to be a starter and no future draft assets.

The only moves that would fall under the tank umbrella are moves that returned us first rounders. Acquiring first rounders in exchange for guys who arent considered part of the "future" is the only clear priority I see from the Jazz.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

It sounds like we really value that pick though. We added seconds and NAW to get it done.

I know… that’s why I said DA is value based. We wanted the pick… there are multiple motivations at play.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

If you arent trading vets who are essentially on expiring deals then you arent tanking IMO. I think if there was tanking playbook, trading vets on expiring deals (regardless of return) would be high up on the priority list.

I know this tanking thing exist on a spectrum. I would put our tank rank at 5, maybe a 6 at the highest.

1 being all out, making all the moves possible to win now, and 10 being Trust the Process style tanking.

I'm calling this team building style : Soft Reboot

KO has an option… JC may be part of the future. It is a spectrum… there’s no way you can tell me we are a 5 when in the last 12 months we’ve traded 3 all stars, 2 starters, for young players, a mid vet, and 9 first round picks. The young players ended up exceeding everyone’s expectations by a lot and that is why the rebuild feels soft.

You don’t have to sell off every piece but Danny has sold off every piece that returned solid value… only pieces he didn’t look to sell were Lauri, Walker and Ochai… if DA had his preferences and could have gotten a first for JC you still think he’s here?

DA is value based first… but every deal except the Bogey deal has told you the direction he’s going. It’s obvious but if he smiles in a press conference and tells you they aren’t thinking about the draft or manipulating the standings we take him at face value I guess.

 

[Elizah Huge]

I would just like to point out if we didn’t trade Bogey for cap savings we’d be in the luxury tax by about 4M right now.

 

[PresidioTrojan]

IMO - it is a clear, intentional, multi-year rebuild but not an outright tank. The latter requires intentionally being as bad as possible for your own pick's value and we are not in that bucket (thankfully).

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I would just like to point out if we didn’t trade Bogey for cap savings we’d be in the luxury tax by about 4M right now.

I’m old enough to remember when a bunch of posters lol’d me for saying the Ingles deal was primarily about money… and argued with Jazz insiders about it and they told me NAW would be in the rotation immediately and he was basically a lotto talent and money wasn’t even a consideration lol… how cynical… DA and JZ said it was about NAW and how dare you think you know better. 12 M lol why would Ryan care about that lolz.

Okay… sorry I don’t think they hold a press conference and say we traded a Jazz icon so we could save 12M and take a flier on a guy.

The Bogey deal was a lateral move forced by a self imposed deadline that saved us some important dough. DA would have taken a first if he could get it.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

IMO - it is a clear, intentional, multi-year rebuild but not an outright tank. The latter requires intentionally being as bad as possible for your own pick's value and we are not in that bucket (thankfully).

Look we aren’t tanking the eff outta this B but we are tanking some of the effs out of it.

 

[Release the Kraken]

I didnt watch that game, but nice to hear Conley is doing fine. I can buy Ant being inconsistent easily as he was that earlier this season when I watched some of their games.

Hopefully he will keep them as a disconnected team and they fall out of the playoffs and gift us a higher pick.

Yeah I hear ya. Hard to understand Danny’s thought process on this one cause no question we improved Minny and LA with the idea of slowing our own roll. But we provided four good players and three second rounders for a headache named Westbrook two end of bench guys and one first that automatically conveys to a second. Westbrook is a headache because nobody’s going to be willing to pay even half of what he’s owed so we’re stuck with the bill AND now we have to come up with excuses not to play him without incurring the wrath of Adam Silver for overt tanking.

 

[FrenchJazzFa]

I like to see Rudy going back to his level. People who say he was done shoud have wait before speak. For Minny, i'm still not sure they will make it. For me depend on KAT coming back strong or not. Last night game was really bad in term of coaching. Ant get the ball way too much ( and TO a lot) and was totally washed at money time. They have to change thing is they wanna malke it.

For us, i don't think we really tank. I just think there is a lot a better team than us. Game against OKC will be important.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

I always thought Nickeil could guard big guards and wings.


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