Official Utah/Minnesota/Philadelphia Pick Watch

[Jaanipoeg]

Jazz with a big must-lose game coming up against the Thunder are the break. Sexton will be out with his hammy, maybe we tell Markkanen to take a few more days for muscle recovery after his busy weekend. If we can manage to drop our 4 games against OKC to end the year that will be huge for them potentially passing Minnesota and helping the tank

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Maybe not, but it’s definitely been DA’s modus operandi before. He’s made more than a couple of huge trades for stars in the past, and he already has two solid young players to build around. Maybe he keeps those picks, but if the right star comes available I hope he gets into the mix.

I think he is primarily value based. Maybe to a fault. So when he trades for superstars its cuz he can get them at a good value. KG/Ray/Kyrie were all kinda discounts. He also got premiums when selling off stars. I think that is the route we go and right now the market price for stars is bonkers.

I also don't believe one word Danny says when he talks about what they might do. I think there is truth on his assessments after the fact but his actions have run contrary to what he says he is going to do several times. Almost to the point I think he means the opposite of the message being pushed by those in the media with connections to the franchise. We kept hearing they don't want to bottom out... they could be buyers... they aren't going to sell off pieces at a discount at the deadline just to be worse... while they got a pick I think a good part of the motivation is to not be as good this season... of course they don't sell it that way. They sell it as we want to give all these young guys as many minutes as possible.

I think we will hunt for value for the next couple years. Look for Kevin Heurter, Derrick White, types of value deals. We will be high on teams speed dials as they look to sell off useful pieces like that. If a guy like Haliburton or even Sabonis became available I think he'd push in... the Luka, Giannis stuff is all a bit too much NBA 2k for me. Those guys can really dictate where they will go so we have to pony up a big prize AND get them to pick us. I love Utah... NBA players likely still think its effing Nebraska or some **** (no offense to Nebraska).

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Jazz with a big must-lose game coming up against the Thunder are the break. Sexton will be out with his hammy, maybe we tell Markkanen to take a few more days for muscle recovery after his busy weekend. If we can manage to drop our 4 games against OKC to end the year that will be huge for them potentially passing Minnesota and helping the tank

those 4 games will do so much to determine where our picks land. Someone call MJ pizza guy and make some deliveries to the home team this time. A non-Covid illness moving through the team during that series could land us top 8 and help put Minny in the play in.

 

[zags422]

I think he is primarily value based. Maybe to a fault. So when he trades for superstars its cuz he can get them at a good value. KG/Ray/Kyrie were all kinda discounts. He also got premiums when selling off stars. I think that is the route we go and right now the market price for stars is bonkers.

I also don't believe one word Danny says when he talks about what they might do. I think there is truth on his assessments after the fact but his actions have run contrary to what he says he is going to do several times. Almost to the point I think he means the opposite of the message being pushed by those in the media with connections to the franchise. We kept hearing they don't want to bottom out... they could be buyers... they aren't going to sell off pieces at a discount at the deadline just to be worse... while they got a pick I think a good part of the motivation is to not be as good this season... of course they don't sell it that way. They sell it as we want to give all these young guys as many minutes as possible.

I think we will hunt for value for the next couple years. Look for Kevin Heurter, Derrick White, types of value deals. We will be high on teams speed dials as they look to sell off useful pieces like that. If a guy like Haliburton or even Sabonis became available I think he'd push in... the Luka, Giannis stuff is all a bit too much NBA 2k for me. Those guys can really dictate where they will go so we have to pony up a big prize AND get them to pick us. I love Utah... NBA players likely still think it’s effing Nebraska or some **** (no offense to Nebraska).

Pssssh……..Go Big Red!!!

 

[HermanG]

I also don't believe one word Danny says when he talks about what they might do. I think there is truth on his assessments after the fact but his actions have run contrary to what he says he is going to do several times. Almost to the point I think he means the opposite of the message being pushed by those in the media with connections to the franchise. We kept hearing they don't want to bottom out... they could be buyers... they aren't going to sell off pieces at a discount at the deadline just to be worse... while they got a pick I think a good part of the motivation is to not be as good this season... of course they don't sell it that way. They sell it as we want to give all these young guys as many minutes as possible.

Ok I dont really know what you had for breakfast man.. but that chapter is so far from the truth. Watch/listen the interviews of all 3 guys (Smith, Danny and Zanik). All 3 talk about the next offseason with genuine excitement and enthusiasm. Only way thats fake is they actually took acting classes or something.

Did we bottom out? No. We didnt do anything in the fall to break the wheels and then we did 1 trade deadline move to remove development blockers who had no long-term future with us. If our FO tried to bottom out we should fire all of them for incompetence. Us trying to tank is a public narrative, and the reason our players have had so much energy to fight that narrative is because it has never existed anywhere in the building.

That "we could be buyers" was fed by the interviewer. It was then reinforced by foolishly optimistic and hopeful people like me who thought it would be cool to see this team in the playoffs. Danny's response to the question was "anything is possible at this point". We did due diligence on few guys who could be long term pieces... Collins being a discount guy as well. Doesnt mean anyone was leading us off. They were looking at all options as they always said they would.

And that Lakers trade was not a tank trade. Think about it... we had to move the 3 guys. Why? We knew they werent fits to our team/window and if you sit them on the bench for the rest of the season they have next to no value in the offseason and Mike's contract becomes a big problem. If you play them, you wont get to complete the process they publicly said they set out to do (evaluate everyone). It was also likely the only way to get a premium asset from those 3 guys... and it was smart capwise.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Ok I dont really know what you had for breakfast man.. but that chapter is so far from the truth. Watch/listen the interviews of all 3 guys (Smith, Danny and Zanik). All 3 talk about the next offseason with genuine excitement and enthusiasm. Only way thats fake is they actually took acting classes or something.

Did we bottom out? No. We didnt do anything in the fall to break the wheels and then we did 1 trade deadline move to remove development blockers who had no long-term future with us. If our FO tried to bottom out we should fire all of them for incompetence. Us trying to tank is a public narrative, and the reason our players have had so much energy to fight that narrative is because it has never existed anywhere in the building.

That "we could be buyers" was fed by the interviewer. It was then reinforced by foolishly optimistic and hopeful people like me who thought it would be cool to see this team in the playoffs. Danny's response to the question was "anything is possible at this point". We did due diligence on few guys who could be long term pieces... Collins being a discount guy as well. Doesnt mean anyone was leading us off. They were looking at all options as they always said they would.

And that Lakers trade was not a tank trade. Think about it... we had to move the 3 guys. Why? We knew they werent fits to our team/window and if you sit them on the bench for the rest of the season they have next to no value in the offseason and Mike's contract becomes a big problem. If you play them, you wont get to complete the process they publicly said they set out to do (evaluate everyone). It was also likely the only way to get a premium asset from those 3 guys... and it was smart capwise.

Go back further... "we are open to keeping Rudy and Don and making moves around the margin" meanwhile they shopping Rudy hard. Once they trade Rudy "nah the Jazz are going to build around Donovan" meanwhile the Knicks trade convos are hot and heavy while behind the scenes they know Don wants out and are going to move him.

We made the Bogey trade and tried to trade the other guys but LA wasn't budging. Then we have a bonkers start that catches literally everyone by surprise.... including management. We fall back to earth and all we hear is "they won't make a trade to manipulate the standings... they aren't going to do a deal just to do a deal". They traded a starter and 2 key rotation players (who are both young enough to be part of the timeline and under team control) for a first with weird protections. A deal some are still pissy about. They aren't "bottoming out" but they are punting on the play in and made a move that will send them down the standings. It gets the young guys more playing time but its completely fair to say there are other benefits they had in mind. You can call it investing in the youth... its all the same stuff that teams sell when they tank. If you don't think trading Mike and two rotation pieces for zero returning on court value is a tank trade then I don't know what to tell you. A starting point guard playing 30 minutes a night and two guys that were playing 20-25 minutes a night. It wasn't amazing value... it was fair... if the emphasis isn't winning games now and making the playoffs/play-in... boy that sounds a lot like a move that will "manipulate the standings".

The Collins trade stuff was always about the pick as much as it was the player.

The more I hear Locke beat the drum of "we aren't tanking" the more I believe the FO wants us to hear it. If you want to take everything they say at face value by all means go ahead. I'm an actions over words type of guy.

 

[HermanG]

Go back further... "we are open to keeping Rudy and Don and making moves around the margin" meanwhile they shopping Rudy hard. Once they trade Rudy "nah the Jazz are going to build around Donovan" meanwhile the Knicks trade convos are hot and heavy while behind the scenes they know Don wants out and are going to move him.

We made the Bogey trade and tried to trade the other guys but LA wasn't budging. Then we have a bonkers start that catches literally everyone by surprise.... including management. We fall back to earth and all we hear is "they won't make a trade to manipulate the standings... they aren't going to do a deal just to do a deal". They traded a starter and 2 key rotation players (who are both young enough to be part of the timeline and under team control) for a first with weird protections. A deal some are still pissy about. They aren't "bottoming out" but they are punting on the play in and made a move that will send them down the standings. It gets the young guys more playing time but its completely fair to say there are other benefits they had in mind. You can call it investing in the youth... its all the same stuff that teams sell when they tank. If you don't think trading Mike and two rotation pieces for zero returning on court value is a tank trade then I don't know what to tell you. A starting point guard playing 30 minutes a night and two guys that were playing 20-25 minutes a night. It wasn't amazing value... it was fair... if the emphasis isn't winning games now and making the playoffs/play-in... boy that sounds a lot like a move that will "manipulate the standings".

The Collins trade stuff was always about the pick as much as it was the player.

The more I hear Locke beat the drum of "we aren't tanking" the more I believe the FO wants us to hear it. If you want to take everything they say at face value by all means go ahead. I'm an actions over words type of guy.

I swear I have heard you admit Beasley and Vando werent fits. You twist that narrative completely around by saying we traded away future pieces... Only future piece we traded away was NAW, and Zanik said they didnt want to do that but had to to make it happen.

Being open to keeping them means no decissions had been made. No offers good enough. It means he wont sell short. Us listening offers for Rudy was reported literally everywhere one month before the trade.

My problem was you drive a narrative of a dishonest scheming person which is absolutely contrary to what he is. He seems like a cold-hearted all-business man for sure who could sell his mother.. but also honest and frank.

 

[sip]

Embid is hurt so that might help

He isn't hurt to the point that he is going to miss games. With the all star break he is going to get a chance to rest a little bit and I bet he doesn't play in the game. I keep waiting for them to go on one of those slumps that usually happens to every good team but they always have guys stepping up when someone goes down or isn't playing real well and of course Embiid has been incredible.

 

[default]

He isn't hurt to the point that he is going to miss games. With the all star break he is going to get a chance to rest a little bit and I bet he doesn't play in the game. I keep waiting for them to go on one of those slumps that usually happens to every good team but they always have guys stepping up when someone goes down or isn't playing real well and of course Embiid has been incredible.

He is a large 7 footer with a hurt foot that he is complaining about. You might be right that he won't miss games right now, but it could limit his effectiveness or make a bigger foot injury more likely. Foot injuries on larger centers cannot be ignored and often linger.

 

[sip]

He is a large 7 footer with a hurt foot that he is complaining about. You might be right that he won't miss games right now, but it could limit his effectiveness or make a bigger foot injury more likely. Foot injuries on larger centers cannot be ignored and often linger.

No doubt about that. It wouldn't surprise me to see them start resting him a little bit even if he is healthy to finish the season so he can be at full strength going into the playoffs which could help us. He always seems to have some kind of injury going into the playoffs so they may be more cautious this year unless they are dead set on trying to fight for the 1 seed.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I swear I have heard you admit Beasley and Vando werent fits. You twist that narrative completely around by saying we traded away future pieces... Only future piece we traded away was NAW, and Zanik said they didnt want to do that but had to to make it happen.

I don't think I've said that at all. I said their value is highest now so sell them now... sure... but if the offer was like 5 second rounders then whatevs. I just don't think Vando or Malik are as good as some people here think. Doesn't mean they aren't useful. I'm not twisting narratives lol... I'm simple saying I take what DA and the front office out there with not just a grain of salt... like a spoon full of salt.

Being open to keeping them means no decissions had been made. No offers good enough. It means he wont sell short. Us listening offers for Rudy was reported literally everywhere one month before the trade.

My problem was you drive a narrative of a dishonest scheming person which is absolutely contrary to what he is. He seems like a cold-hearted all-business man for sure who could sell his mother.. but also honest and frank.

Its not evil scheming... but do I think they lie... hell yes. Does that mean he is lying to his players? Probably not... but is he sitting at the poker table showing his hand to the guys he is playing against... eff no... he's doing all he can to throw them off the scent of what he wants to do.

I think you can tell more about DA and how he moves from his assessment of how he has played in the past than you can about what he is telling you they are looking to do in the future. Yesterday he had a story about being able to trade the two picks for jimmy butler and he passed. Those became Tatum and Brown. I think that tells me more than anything he says he is looking to do. It will all be value based and I'm guessing if those picks weren't with Jimmy Butler that all these posters thinking he will trade 4-5 picks for a big splash are mistaken.

 

[Elizah Huge]

I don't think I've said that at all. I said their value is highest now so sell them now... sure... but if the offer was like 5 second rounders then whatevs. I just don't think Vando or Malik are as good as some people here think. Doesn't mean they aren't useful. I'm not twisting narratives lol... I'm simple saying I take what DA and the front office out there with not just a grain of salt... like a spoon full of salt.

Its not evil scheming... but do I think they lie... hell yes. Does that mean he is lying to his players? Probably not... but is he sitting at the poker table showing his hand to the guys he is playing against... eff no... he's doing all he can to throw them off the scent of what he wants to do.

I think you can tell more about DA and how he moves from his assessment of how he has played in the past than you can about what he is telling you they are looking to do in the future. Yesterday he had a story about being able to trade the two picks for jimmy butler and he passed. Those became Tatum and Brown. I think that tells me more than anything he says he is looking to do. It will all be value based and I'm guessing if those picks weren't with Jimmy Butler that all these posters thinking he will trade 4-5 picks for a big splash are mistaken.

Yeah, I agree with all of this. If Luka was available and Dallas has a team offering a Durant package or more they’re going to try and squeeze DA for even more than that which he absolutely won’t do. Look at when he acquired Garnett, Allen, Kyrie, etc.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Yeah, I agree with all of this. If Luka was available and Dallas has a team offering a Durant package or more they’re going to try and squeeze DA for even more than that which he absolutely won’t do. Look at when he acquired Garnett, Allen, Kyrie, etc.

And passed up Jimmy, PG, Kawhi... He's a value based guy. There are a couple guys I could see him going for but the picks will be much less... Like I could see Dame... because the contract/age will lower his value to where its like 2-3 picks vs. 6-7... and Dame would probably be happy to be here. Luka, Giannis, etc. make my eyes roll. The prices on like Bridges and OG being 3-4 firsts+ I can see him just saying that's too much to give up.

 

[Release the Kraken]

Watched the game last night and have to dispute some takes regarding Conley. Sure he was 0-6 last night, big deal, still a plus player with six assists and two steals. The big improvement however is more organic and involves the resurgence of Rudy Gobert. Nothing but praise from the talking heads regarding the playmaking talents of Conley and what it means to Gobert. Said there’s a new skip in Rudy’s step since Conley hit town and it’s so obvious to see. Talking about him knowing exactly where to give him the ball followed by Conley himself giving a clinic with a few beautiful assists to the big man.

Bigs must be fed to get going. And Rudy looked like Allstar DPOY Rudy last night with 17 pts, 19 rbs and 3 blocks - he made life for Porzingis particularly difficult but also affected Beal big time. (From a fan’s perspective, it’s nice to see Rudy not continually getting shut out on the pick and roll.) Some absolutely filthy alley oops from Conley to Gobert last night. After the huge win in Dallas (1st game for Conley), where Rudy went 9/9 for 21 pts and 14 boards, +17.

Last night’s loss was nothing to do with Conley or Rudy’s play but more to do with poor coaching, an inconsistent superstar in Edwards and some bad luck. If Kuzma doesn’t make that desperation three with less than a minute (as I recall) the Wolves hang on for the win. Things just snowballed from there.

 

[HermanG]

I don't think I've said that at all. I said their value is highest now so sell them now... sure... but if the offer was like 5 second rounders then whatevs. I just don't think Vando or Malik are as good as some people here think. Doesn't mean they aren't useful. I'm not twisting narratives lol... I'm simple saying I take what DA and the front office out there with not just a grain of salt... like a spoon full of salt.

Its not evil scheming... but do I think they lie... hell yes. Does that mean he is lying to his players? Probably not... but is he sitting at the poker table showing his hand to the guys he is playing against... eff no... he's doing all he can to throw them off the scent of what he wants to do.

I think you can tell more about DA and how he moves from his assessment of how he has played in the past than you can about what he is telling you they are looking to do in the future. Yesterday he had a story about being able to trade the two picks for jimmy butler and he passed. Those became Tatum and Brown. I think that tells me more than anything he says he is looking to do. It will all be value based and I'm guessing if those picks weren't with Jimmy Butler that all these posters thinking he will trade 4-5 picks for a big splash are mistaken.

If DA is lying to public and being honest to players and the tank plan exists... then tell me:
- How did it happen, that our players took that tanking talk as a chip on their shoulder, causing them to overperform? They felt like that public narrative was not true. Where on earth did they get the idea it wasnt true?
- How can you lie your that much (spoon full of salt) one way while claiming honesty to another way and not get caught? Honesty is a one time deal. You lose it publicly even once, you can never claim it publicly again. DA claims it.

Your reasoning has huge holes and it depends on a Hollywood villain narrative that feels very scripted with all the lies, and hidden agendas, and leading others astray on purpose. Thats like a 90's movie conspiracy. Business world is much more Kumbayyaah these days where everyone wants to build relationships, find win-win situations and even competitors cooperating with each other without there being any shady cartels or other such aspects.

DA telling the truth on every turn makes so much more sense... in terms of the impression he gives as a person and through reviewing his actions.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Watched the game last night and have to dispute some takes regarding Conley. Sure he was 0-6 last night, big deal, still a plus player with six assists and two steals. The big improvement however is more organic and involves the resurgence of Rudy Gobert. Nothing but praise from the talking heads regarding the playmaking talents of Conley and what it means to Gobert. Said there’s a new skip in Rudy’s step since Conley hit town and it’s so obvious to see. Talking about him knowing exactly where to give him the ball followed by Conley himself giving a clinic with a few beautiful assists to the big man.

Bigs must be fed to get going. And Rudy looked like Allstar DPOY Rudy last night with 17 pts, 19 rbs and 3 blocks, made life for Porzingis particularly difficult but also affected Beal big time. (From a fan’s perspective, it’s nice to see Rudy not continually getting shut out on the pick and roll.) Some absolutely filthy alley oops from Conley to Gobert last night. After the huge win in Dallas (1st game for Conley), where Rudy went 9/9 for 21 pts and 14 boards, +17.

Last night’s loss was nothing to do with Conley or Rudy’s play but more to do with poor coaching, an inconsistent superstar in Edwards and some bad luck. If Kuzma doesn’t make that desperation three with less than a minute (as I recall) the Wolves hang on for the win. Things just snowballed from there.

While this might be fair and accurate I refuse to believe it because its more fun to believe Mike is a double agent.

I think we all forgot about the "Connelly Rule of Trading" it states - Any trade the Utah Jazz make with Tim Connelly will become lopsided in favor of the Jazz every time.

Look its just science.

 

[HermanG]

Yeah, I agree with all of this. If Luka was available and Dallas has a team offering a Durant package or more they’re going to try and squeeze DA for even more than that which he absolutely won’t do. Look at when he acquired Garnett, Allen, Kyrie, etc.

You agree with DA lying a lot as well? Not baiting you here, just honestly interested.

 

[Elizah Huge]

You agree with DA lying a lot as well? Not baiting you here, just honestly interested.

If you listened to him yesterday he said majority of what the media leaks isn’t true at all. It’s much better to look at his actions. If you don’t think trading 4 of our rotation guys wasn’t a tank move then that’s on you. We were never going to be serious buyers of someone like OG or something. We aren’t even in a position to be doing that yet there would have been zero point.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

If DA is lying to public and being honest to players and the tank plan exists... then tell me:

Dude it’s not some elaborate tank plan where he gets us to bottom five and will resort to violence if needed.

- How did it happen, that our players took that tanking talk as a chip on their shoulder, causing them to overperform? They felt like that public narrative was not true. Where on earth did they get the idea it wasnt true?

You have no idea how tanking works apparently. It isn’t an elaborate plan that everyone is in on. Players play… coaches coach. You remove players that can help win more games… simple as that. Does it always work… no… sometimes plans change.

- How can you lie your that much (spoon full of salt) one way while claiming honesty to another way and not get caught? Honesty is a one time deal. You lose it publicly even once, you can never claim it publicly again. DA claims it.

There are different types of lies… a player comes to DA and says are these trade conversations real… I think he will be honest with them.

Your reasoning has huge holes and it depends on a Hollywood villain narrative that feels very scripted with all the lies, and hidden agendas, and leading others astray on purpose. Thats like a 90's movie conspiracy. Business world is much more Kumbayyaah these days where everyone wants to build relationships, find win-win situations and even competitors cooperating with each other without there being any shady cartels or other such aspects.

What in the literal hell is this? What business utopia do you live in? It’s not some evil plan it’s simple executing a strategy and not letting competitors in on your plans or keeping them guessing. I know a thing or two on how business operates… business partners align insofar as it is in their best interest to do so. As soon as paths split the relationship will change. There is just as much lying cheating cutthroat behavior as there has ever been. Good hell look at the scary **** social media companies do with information. You can’t be this naive.

DA telling the truth on every turn makes so much more sense... in terms of the impression he gives as a person and through reviewing his actions.

Yes he reveals everything to everyone cuz it’s honorable and nice. We are talking about a guy that wouldn’t even grant us a ****ing trade exception after he took our all star. He had IT recruiting Gordo while he was simultaneously looking to trade him for Kyrie cuz he knew the guy was broken.

 

[HermanG]

If you listened to him yesterday he said majority of what the media leaks isn’t true at all. It’s much better to look at his actions. If you don’t think trading 4 of our rotation guys wasn’t a tank move then that’s on you. We were never going to be serious buyers of someone like OG or something. We aren’t even in a position to be doing that yet there would have been zero point.

I take that as a yes for the lying part? The FO has denied that making us worse was a factor in why they made that trade. Also Danny himself has directly on the record called BS on him ever tanking.