On the record...

[YoungJefe]

I think the old front office may have also fallen for the "Players are going to be lining up to sign and play with Donovan!" narrative that flew around his rookie season. That really didn't happen...

With what cap space? We've been a luxury tax team.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I think people mean the things they say, and not in the most uncharitable interpretation possible. I can't believe you're dying on this hill that Infection thinks that picks are something to be tossed away for nothing, but if it makes you feel better so be it. A raffle ticket could mean anything, it depends on the raffle. The exact percentage or expected value wasn't even the point of his statement. No one thinks that the picks are worthless, and you know that, so there's no reason to be hysterical about an opinion that no one holds.

That also isn't the only thing you made up out of your *** in this argument. The Roco/Powell = championship thing was totally out of your imagination lmao. But hey, creative writing is something people should do more.

Yeah and I can’t believe you think he isn’t implying their value isn’t what most think by comparing them to something that 90% of people think are basically worthless, but you are hung up on a fuggin space… because that’s the only time things get literal. Like have you participated in a real raffle? Like in the real world… cuz I have bought maybe 100 raffle tickets at events and every time I consider it a donation because I’m not hanging around to see if I won a free cash wash and some dash wipes.

Wait everyone else can exaggerate or not mean what they say but when you go on about how we didn’t try everything to win a title and mention the RoCo and Powell trade I can’t say “sure they would have won us a title” to help illustrate maybe why we didn’t bother rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic at a huge cost before it sunk. You’d rather believe the captains plan was to hit the iceberg and sink that bitch.

 

[gomretat]

I lived through Stockton/Malone too... the CBA would never allow that type of team to form over 15 years... even if you did... the working relationship with those two is so much better than Don and Rudy.

I agree trading Don was a better idea than Don/Rudy going forward now that all the reporting has come out about how toxic it was. it almost certainly would yield the disappointing results we have had the last 3 years (its not just one underachieving year... sorry bud.) Rudy has like 2-3 good AS years left if he's lucky... father time is undefeated. What were we going to accomplish the next two years with Rudy and say RJ Barrett and some rookies?

Also, the last time we truly blew it up and went scorched earth was when? It isn't like this is common.

It isn't common but that was before Ainge. And if you follow the logic of blowing it up now with two all-stars what does it take to not blow it up. Next few years could be really sucky and then we just hope it gets better if we get lucky with picks.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

It isn't common but that was before Ainge. And if you follow the logic of blowing it up now with two all-stars what does it take to not blow it up. Next few years could be really sucky and then we just hope it gets better if we get lucky with picks.

I just think there is nuance to it. If our two all-stars were Steph and Klay for example or Brown and Tatum... then its easier to fill in the gaps and have something that can win at the highest levels.

Our all-stars are great but aren't superstars. They have limited positional flexibility and have some limitations on one-side of the court. They also don't like each other (hate is a strong word... but its more than just indifference). This isn't a law firm or retail outlet where you can hate a few co-workers and still have an enjoyable workplace... the have to work directly with each other, practice with each other, travel with each other, sometimes they even have to sit at the same table for lunch... you won't get the best out of those guys if there isn't a good working relationship... sorry... and we have enough evidence on and off court to know they don't. It isn't a new development.

I would hope that next time we have two all-stars we also have our own picks and some cap flexibility to maneuver... it isn't common to blow it up with two all-stars I'll give you that. When we spent all our cap space and picks to go in on Conley, Bogey, and later Favs... well your window ends up shutting as Ingles, Mike, Bogey, and Favs go... if you have picks or young players to reload or replace those guys you might be able to do a pivot and change the core around Don/Rudy.

The core of Don/Rudy was no longer sustainable imo.... if it did stick together what are we slightly better than a play in team in the west... I had us as a play in team as-is. So you sell a year early if you get a premium... we got a premium... so we sold early. I know one guy who sold his house right before the giant crash out here in Norcal. His wife and family were pissed... people laughed... he banked so much money and things went down the *****er so fast. You don't always get a chance to sell before the crash and sometimes it could be a panic sell, but trust me... you'd rather sell a year too early than a year too late.

 

[KqWIN]

Yeah and I can’t believe you think he isn’t implying their value isn’t what most think by comparing them to something that 90% of people think are basically worthless, but you are hung up on a fuggin space… because that’s the only time things get literal. Like have you participated in a real raffle? Like in the real world… cuz I have bought maybe 100 raffle tickets at events and every time I consider it a donation because I’m not hanging around to see if I won a free cash wash and some dash wipes.

Wait everyone else can exaggerate or not mean what they say but when you go on about how we didn’t try everything to win a title and mention the RoCo and Powell trade I can’t say “sure they would have won us a title” to help illustrate maybe why we didn’t bother rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic at a huge cost before it sunk. You’d rather believe the captains plan was to hit the iceberg and sink that bitch.

In the real world, you know what was meant. It’s not what you were whining about. You made up your own thing “worthless”, and now you’re trying so hard to act like Infection actually meant worthless without saying it. If you truly believe that’s what was meant by that metaphor, I can’t help you. I truly cannot help you. I’m done talking about this.

It’s really simple. Don’t make up random **** and then pretend then other person said it. Did I say that Roco/Powell was going to win us a championship? I did not, so don’t tell me I did and argue against it. It’s really not hard. Don’t make up an argument to argue against.

Roco/Powell wasn’t even brought up in the context of a championship at all, it was a counter to the idea that no retool/rearranging around the pieces was possible before. When that trade happened, it was an obvious “we could have done that one”. You said it yourself when it happened. And this is just one trade that “did” happen. It obviously was not the only move that could have happened, especially when we’re talking about the last several years where the team did next to nothing.

It’s not just one thing or another. Whenever the thought of trading one of our old, offense only pieces up people here held onto them like they were the best players ever. To my surprise, it was very difficult to convince many that trading offense for defense was something necessary. It could have very easily been the case that the FO did the same and overrated the ability of our players.

We were also in a transition phase, so “sitting on their ***” might have some truth to it. From the outside there wasn’t clear leadership, and you usually don’t see a part time decision maker come in mid way.

Finally, yes I think it’s fair to think that Danny wanted to blow it up all along. Maybe he wasn’t 100% committed and wasn’t totally content to do nothing and let the last year of Don/Rudy go to waste…but it would not surprise me at all if this is what he heavily leaning towards. Danny is probably more well known for blowing up his championship team instead of actually putting it together in the first place. It’s what he does, and it’s way more plausible to me that this was calculated and planned on when he took the job.

And it’s not like this “iceberg” is some tragedy. It’s what some people have been dying to do. Many people want to tank….I’d even say most want to tank. So yeah, I’d rather believe that Ainge was headed in the direction of what he’s known for and also what most people wanted. Rudy/Don aren’t Ainge’s players. He is at the top of the list of people who I think would want to make their own mark.

 

[NUMBERICA]

It isn't common but that was before Ainge. And if you follow the logic of blowing it up now with two all-stars what does it take to not blow it up.

Having a better core, broadly speaking. But more specifically:
-a core that at least have a good working to relationship and ideally even like each other
-a core where everyone actually, genuinely wants to stay
-a core that aren’t among the last TWO all-stars picked. If it’s among the last three then that’s meaningfully different.
-a core that doesn’t have so many holes that need patching with high-level and nearly equally rare role players.
-a core where there are years to develop and reconfigure the roster. In other words, where the majority of the players are in their 20’s.

And last but certainly not least, the team has to have any meaningful assets and any developing talent in the pipeline.

In case this needs clarification, last year’s team didn’t have those things.

 

[KqWIN]

Having a better core, broadly speaking. But more specifically:
-a core that at least have a good working to relationship and ideally even like each other
-a core where everyone actually, genuinely wants to stay
-a core that aren’t among the last TWO all-stars picked. If it’s among the last three then that’s meaningfully different.
-a core that doesn’t have so many holes that need patching with high-level and nearly equally rare role players.
-a core where there are years to develop and reconfigure the roster. In other words, where the majority of the players are in their 20’s.

And last but certainly not least, the team has to have any meaningful assets and any developing talent in the pipeline.

In case this needs clarification, last year’s team didn’t have those things.

All of this is ideal, but also an incredible long shot. It may have been difficult to build around Don/Rudy, but getting all of this is incredibly difficult. I also don't think Don/Rudy are as difficult to build around as said here.

 

[NUMBERICA]

All of this is ideal, but also an incredible long shot. It may have been difficult to build around Don/Rudy, but getting all of this is incredibly difficult. I also don't think Don/Rudy are as difficult to build around as said here.

You need a Joe Ingles just to start in terms of how you fill the gaps. Who are the other players with Ingles’ skill set (on and off the floor)? Who are the backline rim-protectors that also spread the floor? Who are the quality Jack-of-all-trades big wings that are just sitting around waiting to be signed? This is what I mean by “high-level role players of nearly equal rarity.” The Mitchell Gobert build needs those kinds of gaps filled.

It’s hard to build a championship team, that’s not a reason to not try. When the team you have isn’t that in a very embarrassing way, it’s rational to try something else.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

In the real world, you know what was meant. It’s not what you were whining about. You made up your own thing “worthless”, and now you’re trying so hard to act like Infection actually meant worthless without saying it. If you truly believe that’s what was meant by that metaphor, I can’t help you. I truly cannot help you. I’m done talking about this.

What... in the real world when and where are raffle tickets used? I have participated in probably 25 raffles or so... they have been used exclusively by charitable organizations to drive donations where they offer little to no value to the purchaser. It is simply easier to have kids and volunteers "can you purchase these 10 raffle tickets for $20" rather than "can you give me $20 for my charity". Occasionally I will go to a high end golf tournament that has expensive raffle tickets and nicer prizes... its a ****** representation of the actual value of what first round picks truly are. Metaphors are symbolic... raffle tickets are a symbol of something with very little value... use a better symbol if you don't want to give connotations of very little value. A much better metaphor is trading an operating business with cash flow, but also some liabilities and threats, for stock in tech companies... the stock may be worth half what the business is or twice what its worth... but its a more liquid asset and also has value much more in line with first round picks than ****ing raffle tickets (I literally throw 90% of them away or give them to people as I leave whatever event... most of those people don't even want them). When 90% of the people who cover the league are like "holy **** look what they got for Rudy" then I'm gonna have issue with folks saying they got raffle tickets, or lotto tickets, or magic beans, or bed bath and beyond coupons. That isn't making anything up... that is just taking the normal interpretation of a symbol in a metaphor.

Also, spare me the "I can't help you". I don't need help... but so nice of you to offer a poor moron like me some help.

And sure... super plausible that Danny took over a team that had the #1 seed in the conference, had a 20-7 record, and was like I'm going to tank this ****. No one wanted to tank when Danny took over... but sure I'm the one who makes **** up. Danny isn't known for blowing up teams... he's known for getting extreme value in trades... the Brown/Tatum thing is just one of his amazing moves, but his signature move was putting together the KG/Pierce/Allen trio... almost sold off Pierce... but he's nimble and rode it out and took the best path that was presented to him... just like he did with Rudy... just like he will do with Donovan. He didn't have some predetermined will to tank. You can "make your mark" in many different ways... he looked at the results and the locker room and has likely decided the best path forward is a complete tear down... he also might pivot and think we just keep Donovan like he did with Pierce. I think it would be less than ideal but I also don't know what the trade return will be for Don.

Finally, Danny didn't let the last year of Don and Rudy go to waste... Don and Rudy did.... Quin did.... Mike, Royce, etc. The team was lifeless, the locker room was toxic, the scars were too deep. Swapping a few parts and a new coach wasn't going to save it... believe what you want.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

You need a Joe Ingles just to start in terms of how you fill the gaps. Who are the other players with Ingles’ skill set (on and off the floor)? Who are the backline rim-protectors that also spread the floor? Who are the quality Jack-of-all-trades big wings that are just sitting around waiting to be signed?

It’s hard to build a championship team, that’s not a reason to not try. When the team you have isn’t that in a very embarrassing way, it’s rational to try something else.

Joe was legit a 5-10 win guy when you figure how he fills in for injury or falls back into his role. The window shut when he got hurt. He looked pretty rough before that so it may have been shut when he just slowed down. We aren't sacrificing a 55 win squad to get the bounty of raffle tickets... we are sacrificing a 45 win squad (likely for a year or two)... to give ourselves a great shot at being a 55+ win squad for multiple years.

Giving it one last go with some different parts is fine but you can't say it comes with no cost. The costs could be extreme - like holding onto that investment that goes bonkers but then tanks when something happens but you wanted to hold for just a little longer.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Having a better core, broadly speaking. But more specifically:
-a core that at least have a good working to relationship and ideally even like each other
-a core where everyone actually, genuinely wants to stay
-a core that aren’t among the last TWO all-stars picked. If it’s among the last three then that’s meaningfully different.
-a core that doesn’t have so many holes that need patching with high-level and nearly equally rare role players.
-a core where there are years to develop and reconfigure the roster. In other words, where the majority of the players are in their 20’s.

And last but certainly not least, the team has to have any meaningful assets and any developing talent in the pipeline.

In case this needs clarification, last year’s team didn’t have those things.

Do you need all of those things? Nope. Do you need a few more than we had? Fo sho.

 

[KqWIN]

You need a Joe Ingles just to start in terms of how you fill the gaps. Who are the other players with Ingles’ skill set (on and off the floor)? Who are the backline rim-protectors that also spread the floor? Who are the quality Jack-of-all-trades big wings that are just sitting around waiting to be signed?

It’s hard to build a championship team, that’s not a reason to not try when the team you have isn’t that in a very embarrassing way.

Joe Ingles was hard to replace, I cannot deny that and his injury/age is probably something we (including myself) don't give enough consideration again. If we were to do this all over again, we would have just rolled with Ingles/Mitchell as the backcourt and blown the wad on a wing instead of Conley,

Having said that, the Jazz did a really piss poor job of building around Don/Rudy. It's not impossible to get some guys who are two way players and it's certainly not possible to find a guy who is just good at defense or contributes in other ways besides having the ball/scoring. We had a lot of good players, but we incredibly tilted towards guys who want the ball and didn't have anyone who contributes other ways. Royce was that guy, but his defense became laughably bad over time under Quin. It's not for me to decide what's "good enough" for any person. Some would say the only thing that matters is a championship. I think I would happy making the finals or maybe even the conference finals if we were competitive in that series. I think we were pretty damn close to what I was happy with, even just swapping out a different coach could have gotten us there. But the fit of the team was so bad there was also a ton of room for improvement, and I don't think it took finding one of a kind unobtainable role players.