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The Caravan

Chances are they’re all going to be to detained while they are vetted and then the left it’s gonna come out with their pitchforks saying trump is a Nazi for detaining them.

Please. Obama detain people as well. What he did not do, and no other President has done, is separate families for the crime of crossing the border. You really see no difference there?
 
When they're told they can't enter, do you honestly think that they will just quietly walk away?

Are you saying we will break our own laws by denying people claiming asylum a chance to be heard? Are you saying the President is above the law?

Also your assumption is wrong. I'm definitely for slashing the federal budget.

Yeah, I had guessed that.
 
We all agree on the need to better secure the border, and to punish employers who choose to hire illegal immigrants. We are a generous and welcoming people here in the United States but those who enter the country illegally and those who employ them disrespect the rule of law and they are showing disregard for those following the law. We simply cannot allow people to pour into the United States undetected, undocumented, unchecked and circumventing the line of people who are waiting patiently, diligently and lawfully to become immigrants in this country.
 
We all know right? That Illegal immigration is down from the 1990s and early 2000s, right? I don’t think we should refer to it as “pouring” into our country. If waiting in line is such a priority for conservatives, why not focus on streamlining the process and making it easier to immigrate legally?
 
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Are you saying we will break our own laws by denying people claiming asylum a chance to be heard? Are you saying the President is above the law?



Yeah, I had guessed that.
You keep on assuming and throwing things around that I'm not saying. No President is above the rule of law. We don't have to take migrants into our country.
 
We all know right? That Illegal immigration is down from the 1990s and early 2000s, right? I don’t think we should refer to it as “pouring” into our country. If waiting in line is such a priority for conservatives, why not focus on streamlining the process and making it easier to immigrate legally?
Wrong. "The Pew Research Center found a peak of 12.2 million in the population in 2007, decreases for 2008 and 2009, and then a “relative stability” since then." (https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/illegal-immigration-statistics/) Right now the caravan is over 7,000. No doubt that will increase a lot by the time it arrives. That's a lot of people, who I believe will try to illegally cross into our country.

Edit: Read that wrong. Border crossings have gone down since then. You are right.
 
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You keep on assuming and throwing things around that I'm not saying. No President is above the rule of law. We don't have to take migrants into our country.

I was asking a question because I did not see how to reconcile your positions.

Our laws say that when people show up at our border requesting asylum, we temporarily admit them in order to evaluate their claim. If POTUS denies them the chance to show they qualify for asylum, then POTUS breaks the law.
 
We all know right? That Illegal immigration is down from the 1990s and early 2000s, right? I don’t think we should refer to it as “pouring” into our country. If waiting in line is such a priority for conservatives, why not focus on streamlining the process and making it easier to immigrate legally?

Sorry chief, my post was a direct quote from Obama.
 
Wrong. "The Pew Research Center found a peak of 12.2 million in the population in 2007, decreases for 2008 and 2009, and then a “relative stability” since then." (https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/illegal-immigration-statistics/) Right now the caravan is over 7,000. No doubt that will increase a lot by the time it arrives. That's a lot of people, who I believe will try to illegally cross into our country.

Edit: Read that wrong. Border crossings have gone down since then. You are right.
Sorry chief, my post was a direct quote from Obama.

Which, if taken in the mid 2000s, would be a more accurate description since illegal immigration was at its highest back then.

Otherwise, it would be an inaccurate description and causes me to assume that you’re just trying to stir the pot.

Again, no one has been able to answer me this, if immigrating LEGALLY, truly is the issue that republicans have, why isn’t there any talk about streamlining that process? Instead, I hear calls for xenophobia like “******** countries” and “build the wall” and whining about “unknown middle easterners.”
 
That's from Orwell's Notes on Nationalism, he was using nationalism in a broader context to include the Soviet Union and their international Comintern agents. It's actually one of the first articles that begins to articulate the shift from modernism to post-modernism. He identifies the importance of truth in forming a meta narrative and how various political agents left and right were entirely hostile to the concept of truth seeing it as a barrier to their propaganda machines. Orwell always relevant.
For me, one of the most disturbing aspects of our current political environment is the loss of agreement on what is truth. FOX and the right media present alternative facts as if they were equally valid, Republicans then orient themselves to that skewed world view and act like everyone should get in line with that view. When reality contradicts that worldview instead of reorienting themselves to a more accurate view of what is going on, they dig in deeper because they are so emotionally invested. Fox regularly uses ridicule and shaming to present propaganda to their viewers. They then act outraged when people react to the provocation with outrage. In the era of Trump no common understanding of right or wrong is safe. Deficits are bad? Nope, not if they fund the rich. Nationalism is a threat to democracy? Nope, not if the president says no. A free press a constitutional safeguard against tyranny? Nope, not if they don't agree with Trump. Then they are the enemy of the people. Alliances the bulwark of our national defense? Nope, not if they don't fit with the Trumpian view that Russia is our ally. Putin murdering rivals is abhorrent? Nope, not in the Trump worldview, because the CIA does the same thing. 1984, Animal Farm indeed.

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For me, one of the most disturbing aspects of our current political environment is the loss of agreement on what is truth. FOX and the right media present alternative facts as if they were equally valid, Republicans then orient themselves to that skewed world view and act like everyone should get in line with that view. When reality contradicts that worldview instead of reorienting themselves to a more accurate view of what is going on, they dig in deeper because they are so emotionally invested. Fox regularly uses ridicule and shaming to present propaganda to their viewers. They then act outraged when people react to the provocation with outrage. In the era of Trump no common understanding of right or wrong is safe. Deficits are bad? Nope, not if they fund the rich. Nationalism is a threat to democracy? Nope, not if the president says no. A free press a constitutional safeguard against tyranny? Nope, not if they don't agree with Trump. Then they are the enemy of the people. Alliances the bulwark of our national defense? Nope, not if they don't fit with the Trumpian view that Russia is our ally. Putin murdering rivals is abhorrent? Nope, not in the Trump worldview, because the CIA does the same thing. 1984, Animal Farm indeed.

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Half formed thoughts are all you'll get from me at 3 in the morning but...

i mostly blame Hollywood celebrities, video games, popular music and teenage mothers, however i will consider the following;

I think its a been a long post WWII decline but certain forces have allowed it to accelerate and become a genuine threat to democracy. The Cold War kind of imposed a discipline on democracies, they mostly had to play by the rules. For instance in today's climate would Nixon have really been any better than Trump? Without an organised militant left, not so much in the Soviet world but in the west and the concentration of media ownership throughout the world the truth is easier to hide. I also think the Americanisation of the global media and politics hasn't helped, the use of wedge issues and so on, is a deliberate ploy to remove rationality from the coverage of issues. Neo-liberalism has eroded public education in much of the developed world and the rise of consumerism i think made people less concerned about social wealth and instead focuses their interests on their own immediate material position. I should probably expand on and explain all of this but i'm about to go to bed, maybe in the morning if i can be stuffed.
 
Half formed thoughts are all you'll get from me at 3 in the morning but...

i mostly blame Hollywood celebrities, video games, popular music and teenage mothers, however i will consider the following;

I think its a been a long post WWII decline but certain forces have allowed it to accelerate and become a genuine threat to democracy. The Cold War kind of imposed a discipline on democracies, they mostly had to play by the rules. For instance in today's climate would Nixon have really been any better than Trump? Without an organised militant left, not so much in the Soviet world but in the west and the concentration of media ownership throughout the world the truth is easier to hide. I also think the Americanisation of the global media and politics hasn't helped, the use of wedge issues and so on, is a deliberate ploy to remove rationality from the coverage of issues. Neo-liberalism has eroded public education in much of the developed world and the rise of consumerism i think made people less concerned about social wealth and instead focuses their interests on their own immediate material position. I should probably expand on and explain all of this but i'm about to go to bed, maybe in the morning if i can be stuffed.
Rube
Not sure what you are saying here.

I do think an obvious threat creates a sense of unity. Or, if not unity at least agreement to prioritize the collective good in the face of that threat. So the USSR kept us from getting too fractured. Although 1968 may beg to differ.

The slow decline from Post WWII is only to be expected. Let's face it the U.S. had the only industrial economy that had not been bomb damaged and we had that huge influx of labor coming home from the war. Boom times are the natural result. I believe the U.S. produce over 50% of goods produced in the world. That was never sustainable. People who want to return to 1950s America would have to pay the price of the 1940s to get there. American exceptionalism is taken as a God ordained fact by some. But, there is a leveling function in capitalism that rewards merit. We can't thump our chests and demand preeminence, we have to earn it. The erosion of trust in science, accepting the world as we find it rather than as we want it to be, and hiding from competition rather than embracing it will only accelerate the decline.

The Rand corporation wrote a report titled: Truth Decay
Found here:
https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR2314.html

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Which, if taken in the mid 2000s, would be a more accurate description since illegal immigration was at its highest back then.

Otherwise, it would be an inaccurate description and causes me to assume that you’re just trying to stir the pot.

Again, no one has been able to answer me this, if immigrating LEGALLY, truly is the issue that republicans have, why isn’t there any talk about streamlining that process? Instead, I hear calls for xenophobia like “******** countries” and “build the wall” and whining about “unknown middle easterners.”

Lol, here you go with your Insert-phobia and insert-ist stuff again. I do wonder if you actually are this delusional or if its an act.
 
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For me, one of the most disturbing aspects of our current political environment is the loss of agreement on what is truth. FOX and the right media present alternative facts as if they were equally valid, Republicans then orient themselves to that skewed world view and act like everyone should get in line with that view. When reality contradicts that worldview instead of reorienting themselves to a more accurate view of what is going on, they dig in deeper because they are so emotionally invested. Fox regularly uses ridicule and shaming to present propaganda to their viewers. They then act outraged when people react to the provocation with outrage. In the era of Trump no common understanding of right or wrong is safe. Deficits are bad? Nope, not if they fund the rich. Nationalism is a threat to democracy? Nope, not if the president says no. A free press a constitutional safeguard against tyranny? Nope, not if they don't agree with Trump. Then they are the enemy of the people. Alliances the bulwark of our national defense? Nope, not if they don't fit with the Trumpian view that Russia is our ally. Putin murdering rivals is abhorrent? Nope, not in the Trump worldview, because the CIA does the same thing. 1984, Animal Farm indeed.


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It's a dang good thing that only Republicans do this! Seriously, this country has turned into Red Rover. Let's hold our lines no matter what! Even if they send their smartest brightest and sometimes dumbest our way we will just hold our line. They may be a positive asset to our team, but hold our line. Red Rover Red Rover... Our republic is over. Both parties are holding too strong to the far corner of their belief systems. There was a time where we could compromise. Now we belittle and degrade anyone without the same belief system we have. Interesting that we blind ourselves to the violence in our own parties, but seek out and attack those of violence in the other party.
 
Please. Obama detain people as well. What he did not do, and no other President has done, is separate families for the crime of crossing the border. You really see no difference there?

Obama didn't have a blanket policy like Trump, but families were still separated under Bush and Obama. When you have a Federal crime, and an adult breaks that crime, the punishment is Federal prison. The intent was to put the violators in prison and the children into temporary care, hence the separation. Politics aside, illegal border crossing is currently a crime. We have a lot of crimes that I think should not result in someone going to prison (and potentially separating them from families). I know of no other Federal crimes where an offender gets to stay with their family. I know a husband and wife who both went to jail on drug charges for weed and their kids were put in the system. During trial, the wife was acquitted, but it still took months for her to get her kids back. Kind of crazy for weed, but that was the law at the time. and occurred in state that happened to have an overzealous social worker dealing with the matter.

I personally think we need a system that makes it easy for people that want to be productive members of society to come across the border. I'd like a system where anyone who enters has a two or three year process to citizenship. These people will have the opportunity to apply for and get jobs legally, and pay taxes and qualify for benefits. Entry includes fingerprinting and a background check. If, after you arrive, you join gangs, commit violent crimes or felonies or root for the Houston Rockets you are out. If you don't check in quarterly during this period and you are caught for anything else, you are out. If you follow the rules, then you get citizenship. If you get kicked out, you can't come back, and if you do, we'll send you go to prison. The large majority of people coming to the U.S. are looking for a better way of life, and are good people. Allowing them to come and work will be great for the economy, yet I do see the need to do something to ensure we are getting good people coming into the country.
 
It's a dang good thing that only Republicans do this! Seriously, this country has turned into Red Rover. Let's hold our lines no matter what! Even if they send their smartest brightest and sometimes dumbest our way we will just hold our line. They may be a positive asset to our team, but hold our line. Red Rover Red Rover... Our republic is over. Both parties are holding too strong to the far corner of their belief systems. There was a time where we could compromise. Now we belittle and degrade anyone without the same belief system we have. Interesting that we blind ourselves to the violence in our own parties, but seek out and attack those of violence in the other party.
Okay
I like the red rover reference btw. I wonder how many have actually played the game. Times were good when you could gather the neighborhood to play red rover, kick the can, or smear the queer. My apologies for the offensive name of that last one, but that's what we called it. I loved that game.

While I agree that both major parties have violent fringe elements, and that we are increasingly polarized, I don't agree with the moral equivalence argument. The leaders of both parties do not equally incite violence with over the top rhetoric, mainly 45 does that. There are Maxine Waters type firebrands on the left, but there are many voices that condemn her for her calls to action. President Trump routinely belittles his political opponents and detractors and incites the mob on the right. And the voices calling for moderation have been silenced in the Republican party. The death of McCain and the demise of Flake have left the right without moderating voices. 44 routinely called for dialogue and calm, and the leaders in the democratic party don't lead chants of "lock him up!" Even when they have more evidence of wrong doing than Trump does. Sharp difference there.

I would love for there to be better dialogue and decorum in politics. I don't have great hopes in the short term for that to happen though. I do think it is vital that we return to following scientific, verifiable facts, and reject the myth and fear mongering wherever we find it.

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Lol, here you go with your Insert-phobia and insert-ist stuff again. I do wonder if you actually are this delusional or if its an act.

Why make unsubstantiated claims that “unknown middle easterners” are advancing with this caravan?
 
Obama didn't have a blanket policy like Trump, but families were still separated under Bush and Obama.

For first-time illegal border crossings s the sole crime? Here's a list of misdemeanors. How many do you think we can find that people are almost never jailed for?

https://www.ussc.gov/sites/default/...seminar/2012/4_Table_Federal_Misdemeanors.pdf

I had heard he was also planning to separate families of those asking for asylum, but I don't recall if that ever went forward or not.
 
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