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The Official 2014/15 Tank Watch thread

freakazoid said:
No. If ever there's a legit reason to tank, it's when your team is bad anyway and about to lose a high draft pick by a few spots. Warriors made a smart move to keep their pick. If anything, they almost screwed the pooch by letting that pick go to a coin toss. Losing that pick by a few spots would have been terrible management. Warriors management did a fantastic job building that team, and tanking to keep their pick was part of that smart management, regardless of how Barnes has developed.
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As for the rest of your post, I agree somewhat, but in the big picture 3 or 4 losses at the end of the season just isn't going to make much impact on where this team will be next year. Hitting on this last high draft pick is much more likely to have a significant impact on the team than a few extra wins at the end of the season. Remember the 4 losses to the Spurs that were so crucial to our future success? If those 4 losses were the key to building our team, kinda silly to now say losses will ruin the team. That kind of flip-flopping suggests that anti-tankers just kind of make it up as they go along because they don't really have a legitimate argument.
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Having said all that, I'm fine with how Utah is managing the team this year, even if we win out the rest of our games, but I refuse to pretend our draft pick is worth less than a few more wins.
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I didn't word it clearly, but I was saying that it doesn't make sense for us to tank the last 10 games like it did for the Warriors to tank because they had a lot more to gain then we did. Was just addressing the, "we should always tank cuz warriors ranked and now they are good" comments from earlier. I would have wanted the Jazz to tank in the same position as the Warriors that year, but that doesn't change the fact that it was the most disgusting tanking ever and made a mockery of the league.

I wanted us to miss the playoffs instead of being the 8th seed and playing the Spurs that year, but this is night and day different.

That year we were an obvious treadmill team that had reached its ceiling as a fringe playoff team. There was no momentum at all.

This year we have a core in place where the sky is the limit and we have momentum. It's go mode. You don't pump the brakes to mayyyyybe move up a few spots in the late lottery.

I've wanted the Jazz to lose every single game for a couple years now, and I probably still would if it meant a bigger difference than it currently does.

This convo is stupid anyways because the Jazz never have, nor will they ever tank. We're just talking about what they should do, but we know they will always try and win (see season ending game vs Minnesota last year)
 
UGLI baby said:
I didn't word it clearly, but I was saying that it doesn't make sense for us to tank the last 10 games like it did for the Warriors to tank because they had a lot more to gain then we did. Was just addressing the, "we should always tank cuz warriors ranked and now they are good" comments from earlier. I would have wanted the Jazz to tank in the same position as the Warriors that year, but that doesn't change the fact that it was the most disgusting tanking ever and made a mockery of the league.

I wanted us to miss the playoffs instead of being the 8th seed and playing the Spurs that year, but this is night and day different.

That year we were an obvious treadmill team that had reached its ceiling as a fringe playoff team. There was no momentum at all.

This year we have a core in place where the sky is the limit and we have momentum. It's go mode. You don't pump the brakes to mayyyyybe move up a few spots in the late lottery.

I've wanted the Jazz to lose every single game for a couple years now, and I probably still would if it meant a bigger difference than it currently does.

This convo is stupid anyways because the Jazz never have, nor will they ever tank. We're just talking about what they should do, but we know they will always try and win (see season ending game vs Minnesota last year)
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OK thanks UGLI, you've probably written more words in that post than this past year combined so I know you're passionate about this.


Look, nobody want to see the Jazz tank. I don't. Freak don't. Nobody does. I just want Stanley Johnson over Kelly Oubre which is what it's looking like right now between 9th and 12th seed. If DL can get us that - GREAT!!! No tanking required.


Like you said, this is a moot point, just have to wait and see what happened between now and the draft. DL has done it before trading up to get Trey Burke, I'm sure he's got more tricks up his sleeve.


Good to see you back as a fan again too, next season's gonna be BAWSE, can't hardly wait.
 
UGLI baby said:
I didn't word it clearly, but I was saying that it doesn't make sense for us to tank the last 10 games like it did for the Warriors to tank because they had a lot more to gain then we did. Was just addressing the, "we should always tank cuz warriors ranked and now they are good" comments from earlier. I would have wanted the Jazz to tank in the same position as the Warriors that year, but that doesn't change the fact that it was the most disgusting tanking ever and made a mockery of the league.

I wanted us to miss the playoffs instead of being the 8th seed and playing the Spurs that year, but this is night and day different.

That year we were an obvious treadmill team that had reached its ceiling as a fringe playoff team. There was no momentum at all.

This year we have a core in place where the sky is the limit and we have momentum. It's go mode. You don't pump the brakes to mayyyyybe move up a few spots in the late lottery.

I've wanted the Jazz to lose every single game for a couple years now, and I probably still would if it meant a bigger difference than it currently does.

This convo is stupid anyways because the Jazz never have, nor will they ever tank. We're just talking about what they should do, but we know they will always try and win (see season ending game vs Minnesota last year)
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I agree with most of that, with a couple exceptions. Lakers, Philly and New York are all worse tanks than GS, and that's just this year. GS let it come down to a coin toss, which means they really should have cranked it up a notch, and they almost paid for it. They also started the year trying for the playoffs, and only started tanking when hit by injuries.
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Utah has absolutely tanked before. Down the stretch of the season before we drafted Deron, for one. KOC had a spot targeted to get one of two point guards, and we sat multiple players that were banged up with injuries. We also tanked last year and started out tanking this year, before Rudy killed it. If I had any doubts about this year(I did), there are two things that clear it up for me. Continuing to start Kanter over Rudy for so long. If Utah was prioritizing winning this year, that change would have made regardless of Kanter's contract status. But the clincher for me, and I brought this up before the trade, was what kind of return DL would take back, win now pieces or future pieces. Utah could have easily brought back player/s to help us win now in the Kanter trade, and we instead opted for future pieces. That's by design, and it's because DL considered this a rebuilding/development year.
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I guess I should mention that everybody seems to have a different definition of tanking, so I should clarify mine. I don't consider tanking to be doing anything and everything necessary to lose every game. That just doesn't happen. Tanking is simply operating in a way where you have higher priorities than winning now. You're trying to develop players, while at the same time not overachieving to the point you're getting mediocre picks every year. Obviously some teams tank more aggressively sometimes, but even Philly this year, who everybody labeled the worst tankers ever, have won enough games that they aren't even the worst team THIS year, let alone ever.
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Finally, we agree that Utah shouldn't tank outright at this point. The one exception I would make is to be overly cautious with banged up players. I've said it in another thread, but I would prefer to see Dante kinda start to get it to end the season, than to drop a few games for a better spot.
 
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I don't think that the games left this year have any effect on next year (unless someone gets injured)

We could lose the rest of the games this year or win them all.

next year will depend on what we do this summer, how hard our guys work on thier games, what players we aquire, training camp, etc.

I don't think what happens to our win/loss record for the rest of this year has any bearing on the win/loss record next season. Just my opinion
 
freakazoid said:
I agree with most of that, with a couple exceptions. Lakers, Philly and New York are all worse tanks than GS, and that's just this year. GS let it come down to a coin toss, which means they really should have cranked it up a notch, and they almost paid for it. They also started the year trying for the playoffs, and only started tanking when hit by injuries.
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Utah has absolutely tanked before. Down the stretch of the season before we drafted Deron, for one. KOC had a spot targeted to get one of two point guards, and we sat multiple players that were banged up with injuries. We also tanked last year and started out tanking this year, before Rudy killed it. If I had any doubts about this year(I did), there are two things that clear it up for me. Continuing to start Kanter over Rudy for so long. If Utah was prioritizing winning this year, that change would have made regardless of Kanter's contract status. But the clincher for me, and I brought this up before the trade, was what kind of return DL would take back, win now pieces or future pieces. Utah could have easily brought back player/s to help us win now in the Kanter trade, and we instead opted for future pieces. That's by design, and it's because DL considered this a rebuilding/development year.
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I guess I should mention that everybody seems to have a different definition of tanking, so I should clarify mine. I don't consider tanking to be doing anything and everything necessary to lose every game. That just doesn't happen. Tanking is simply operating in a way where you have higher priorities than winning now. You're trying to develop players, while at the same time not overachieving to the point you're getting mediocre picks every year. Obviously some teams tank more aggressively sometimes, but even Philly this year, who everybody labeled the worst tankers ever, have won enough games that they aren't even the worst team THIS year, let alone ever.
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Finally, we agree that Utah shouldn't tank outright at this point. The one exception I would make is to be overly cautious with banged up players. I've said it in another thread, but I would prefer to see Dante kinda start to get it to end the season, than to drop a few games for a better spot.
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Yeah, we define tanking differently.

I think of tanking as trying to lose, not just re-tooling or focusing on the future more than the present. I think of it as specifically going out of your way to lose games.

So by your definition of "tanking", then we agree that the Jazz should "tank" the rest of the season. Rest players who really need it, take some chances on trying new lineups, anything that focuses more on the future than just winning the game in front of you. I just don't want us outright trying to lose (even though that was my wish the last couple of years.)
 
UGLI baby said:
So by your definition of "tanking", then we agree that the Jazz should "tank" the rest of the season. Rest players who really need it, take some chances on trying new lineups, anything that focuses more on the future than just winning the game in front of you. I just don't want us outright trying to lose (even though that was my wish the last couple of years.)
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Word up uggs
 
fishonjazz said:
I don't think that the games left this year have any effect on next year (unless someone gets injured)

We could lose the rest of the games this year or win them all.

next year will depend on what we do this summer, how hard our guys work on thier games, what players we aquire, training camp, etc.

I don't think what happens to our win/loss record for the rest of this year has any bearing on the win/loss record next season. Just my opinion
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Tell that to Stoked, he seems to think we desperately need to win these last 7 games or else either the franchise will collapse, the ESA will crumble to the ground, or the ghost of Larry H. Miller will come and haunt every Jazzfanz forever and ever and a day.
 
This was said in another thread but I think it's relevant here as well.

Catchall said:
There are 8 games left to play. I think we should take one or two more seriously and write the rest of them off. We're close to picking up another solid player in this draft, if we can get to #10 or #9. Stanley Johnson could be in reach, along with Oubre, Turner, maybe even one of the Euros. In any case, it will be a better pick or trade asset.
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Charlotte may throw in the towel due to injuries. Al Jefferson is questionable right now. Our schedule turns tough as it is, so we might pick up 4 or so losses. We should at least be able to get to #10. Currently, we're tied for 11/12.

We should try to get Hood and Exum some confidence heading into next year, and let Gobert work on some offensive moves. It's been a good season. Nice improvement from Hayward and Favors, and Gobert is a stud.
 
ONE LOVE said:
Tell that to Stoked, he seems to think we desperately need to win these last 7 games or else either the franchise will collapse, the ESA will crumble to the ground, or the ghost of Larry H. Miller will come and haunt every Jazzfanz forever and ever and a day.
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Don't speak for me or even pretend to understand my point.

Because from this you very clearly don't.
 
Catchall said:
Charlotte may throw in the towel due to injuries. Al Jefferson is questionable right now. Our schedule turns tough as it is, so we might pick up 4 or so losses. We should at least be able to get to #10. Currently, we're tied for 11/12.

We should try to get Hood and Exum some confidence heading into next year, and let Gobert work on some offensive moves. It's been a good season. Nice improvement from Hayward and Favors, and Gobert is a stud.
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Paul George also coming back tomorrow. Hopefully that boosts the Pacers a bit too. DET is also quietly surging with 6-4 of last 10.
 
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