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The official "let's impeach Trump" thread

If I quibble with nice little pics, or simplified interpretations, I would run off any chance for friends.....

Fish is Game's best bud forever, sorta.....He gets rave reviews for his criticisms of me. But he is a nice enough guy.

Couldn't agree more. And I genuinely believe this to be true of pretty much everyone here. Opinions and relative anonymity bring out the worst in some of us, unfortunately, but I like the idea of starting off with-- and maintaining-- the assumption we're all earnestly looking for truth, or at least a sense of community. It's good common ground.
 
So I read a lot of the link I posted from LPAC above.

Sometimes I sorta think civilization would not exist if there were no British Empire, and feel a bit insecure about what the world would be without the Am-Brit-EU power core. We have been fighting their wars for over a hundred years.... since our Press ran the fake news about the Maine, sent us off on the errand to dismantle the Spanish colonies, Cuba and the Philippines.

I noticed the comments in the pdf about the overthrow of Ferdinand Marcos. Now I know something about that. I met Benigno Aquino and his wife Corazon Aquino once. And yes, she was wearing a yellow dress that day, in 1971. I thought they were the nicest people. I was teaching a lesson on Mormonism to one of their relatives, and they even sat and listened politely., Elsewhere, later on, I also became a good friend of one of Marcos' trusted inner circle, and he even talked to me about stuff. Marcos was Nelson Rockefellers man, Aquino was associated with the Kennedys in the USA.

I also had occasion to spend some time in the communist-controlled province in central Luzon, where I heard a lot of stories about how the US installed a political faction in power after WWII, instead of them. They were really nice to me, too. They invited me over for supper in their homes., Me and my companion, and our Book of Mormon.

I wasn't there when Marcos was forced out by mass demonstrations, with huge crowds facing off with tanks in the street, and the soldiers deciding not to open fire. It was I think a little after Benigno Aquino was gunned down getting off the plane at MIA.... Manila International Airport. Marcos was famously corrupt, but he actively promoted the LDS mission. He wanted to diminish the Catholic power base which could threaten him. Aquino was that Catholic reality. There was another LDS-related religion over there, started in the 1918-1922 era by Felix Manalo, which was overtly nationalistic, and had over a million followers. No Book of Mormon, just churches that looked like temples on the outside, and the Salt Lake Tabernacle on the inside, and a rigidly forced tithe and attendance monitoring. Marcos was trying to trim their sails. So, anyway, to the filipinos, Marcos was obviously just messing up their country. I think there are a million Filipinos in Hong Kong, and I wonder if the protests there are not being done like the overthrow of Marcos..... but I would hardly imagine that George Soros is behind that.

But I could be wrong, too. I imagine the LaRouchies think he is. Who knows. I sorta lost my charm with the LPAC when I told them what a dictator Xi is becoming. He liked the Silk Road idea.
 
I confess to a different vision of America. What I am differing from is the agenda of the past 50 years. I first ran into this on the 1973 start of the grand saving the environment movement. Not that I don't like saving the environment, but that I favor a development sort of way to do it. Increase the biosphere. (A LaRouche theme). Develop more agriculture, do good forestry, non-wilderness style. I'm not a hunter, just don't do that. Just learn to do stuff clean and neat and not bother the other crittters too much. Or make more favorable niches for them, too.l

I wouldn't blanche at a billion Americans. I would love to see every country in the world go "American" in terms of human rights, and governments of, by and for the people.

The paradigm of turning three quarters of the world back to wilderness, and reducing human population, and reducing lifestyles and education standards..... you know.... Obama telling the poor people in Africa just not to bother getting electrical stuff like air conditioners and refrigerators..... really stinks.

So, in my opinion, it's the ideas of the leaders more than just their self-serving habits.
 
Thanks for this. It seems not far from the truth (I think you believe this, and are saying so) that most of our elected leaders-- particularly in the higher ranks-- are and have been corrupt for some time. But I think, the more invested we are in one of the exactly two parties in our country, that we react more or less to obvious signs of it by assuming they started out that way and are sullying their office like it's some sort of holy mantle. The more reasonable explanation is more rational: That by merely stepping into whatever office they step into, they inherit the illicit dealings of their predecessor, and are immediately thrust into a corrupt undertaking, no matter how sparkling (Obama or Biden) or not (Trump) their public image leading up to it. My suspicion with this whole Trump affair is that while the Obamas, Bidens and Clintons of the world were not innocent, they just managed to do less to piss off... well, nearly everyone with power to frame their perfectly 'ordinary' corruption as extraordinarily corrupt. That is what Trump has done-- he's pissed people off, and has been such an antagonistic prick about it that he's driven the country into the deepest state of division I can remember in my lifetime. Whether or not his actions are uniquely egregious I doubt any ordinary citizen can say, with the information we are given, but if I have to choose between someone who started off decent, and someone who started off as an unethical/amoral piece of garbage, I'd rather pick the former and see them try and navigate the morass that is the US presidency.

Altruistically speaking, I wish we could hit the reset button on this whole thing and elect good people into respectable roles where they don't have to do corrupt things in order to succeed and further the interests of the country. Wouldn't that be nice?

What you are describing is a sort of inertial social reality I don't know if we can really overcome exactly. The Way Things Are. It's like inheriting a British Estate with the house staff and gardeners. They know how things should be done, and usually just don't want to be told something else. I think it is a problem for corporations and small businesses, too..... even for families.

We are always gonna be limited by our information, as well. Large groups can hardly run on original thinking, everybody going their own way like I do.

People in here started off the blocks after Trump won in 2016 pretty quick. There was already an inertial program set up and ready to go, but no Chief who would comply. So it was Dump Trump from the gitgo.

The obvious thing here is just this. A lot of Americans have been trying to change our government directions and ways for years, and it'b been building up. If Management doesn't recognize this as a fact of life, and make peace with that fact somehow, they can hardly expect to get the vote.... I mean the actual support of Americans.
 
For @Catchall

Louisiana senator John Kennedy, a key ally of President Trump, has meanwhile admitted he was wrong to push a debunked conspiracy theory that it was Ukraine, not Russia, who hacked a Democratic National Committee server in 2016.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-news-live-impeachment-blow-113900299.html

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When Durham's report comes out, we'll know more. Who is it that "debunked" the U.S. State Dept.-Ukraine corruption in 2016? MSM reports over and over that Ukraine interference in the 2016 election is somehow debunked, and yet it's under investigation by the DOJ with evidence to the contrary. It's likely that both Russia and Ukraine had an interest in trying to affect the outcome of the 2016 election, and the questions are the degree to which Ukraine took action and what role the Obama State Dept., the CIA and other Democrats played.

As for the Joe/Hunter Biden Burisma story, which was one piece of the puzzle, that was reported in depth by The New Yorker in 2016 and criticized by Democrats, including Obama and Hillary at the time. Joe claims, "No major media has reported that story..." which clearly isn't true. Joe also claims that his pressuring Ukraine to fire the state prosecutor was consistent with U.S. policy. The prosecutor denies this was the case in a sworn statement. Obama hasn't said anything.

There's a difference between "making up dirt" on Joe Biden (as Adam Schiff alleges) and exposing dirt that's real.

In any case, it's spurious to try to impeach a President for seeking to investigate corruption between the U.S. State Dept. and Ukraine in 2016, regardless of the outcome of that investigation. If anything, it makes the Dems look guilty. The DOJ is already working in Ukraine, and according to Sondlen's testimony, the quid pro quo that Trump offered to Zellenskyy was an invitation to visit the White House if Zellenskyy agreed to help investigate the Burisma. (That's not a bribe or extortion, as Trump can invite Zellenskyy to the WH whenever he wants for whatever reason.)

It looks to me like the Democrats and Obama State Dept. are fighting with Trump and Ukraine is caught in the middle, trying to do what's best for them politically.
 
You have got to be just stupid to try to make out this line on Trump.

I don't think I'm stupid at all, and all one had to do was follow along closely the past three years to at least see Trump's deference to Putin. Your own opinion of Trump strikes me as inexplicably naive, like you've been living under a rock, such as the observation "he wants everyone to do well". Say what? An inexplicably incorrect assessment IMO.

But, in truth, I think the dueling narratives, and the fact that each side has extreme difficulty understanding the other, trying to understand what it can possibly be like in the other's shoes, is one of the most interesting, and perplexing, and daunting, phenomenon in our present crisis.

I am continually baffled by Trump fans who are absolutely blind to that which is so easy to see. I have no idea what you see in the guy, and listening to you and his other supporters here describe him, leaves me wondering if we live in the same country and if we're talking about the same guy.
 
Obama state department lol

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The replacement of Obama's (and Bushes and Clintons)selections to fill important slots in the State Department has been nothing. Of course, it was Hillary's Dept. for a while. I think most conservatives consider the Executive Branch agencies can't just be replaced by one memo or pink slip, so nobody, no Pres, today, and just have all his own people. Maybe during the next term..... or the one after that, there will be enough turnover we can sorta get a fresher sorta start.
 
Further remarks on the reasons for the DumpTrump crusade.....
It's not really about office perks or emoluments, nepotism, or manners, not at all. And it's not at all about laws or impeachable offenses, either. All that stuff is pretty much run out because of underlying issues. I mean, if Hillary had won in 2016, there'd be no outrage, no Dem/Press talk about our democracy being threatened, our Constitution being raped and pillaged by some damn Viking fresh off the boat. That's what Orange Man Bad really is. A sorta modern Viking come ashore to sack the village, in the minds of the cool insider establishment career folks.

If HIllary had won, I think, we'd still have 20,000 soldiers in Iraq. And we'd be begging Iran to help us, since that's what we bribed them for with that treaty and all the payola. They'd be nukies, too. And Russia wouldn't know how to flank us in the mideast. Lotsa body bags coming home with assorted pieces of soldiers. Lotsa soldiers going to jail for farting in the presence of the Enemy. Just a bit of exaggeration. Obama's Rules of Engagement were costing American lives. And lots of ripped up soldiers with no legs, or arms, or balls. So maybe you could get a clue why a lot of soldiers and their families didn't vote for Hillary.

But our career managerial guvmint wonks don't care at all about that.

It's the crisis about climate change. It's about bringing America into balance with Russia and China, reducing our military advantages and our sense of being the big kid on the block. It's about the socialist agenda..... single payer health care, open borders, slaves pouring voluntarily to our big meat packing plants, our hotels/motels/casinos/ resorts..... doing our groundskeeping and window washing, flipping our burgers, all for a pittance that creates such a nice profit for our major corporations. Our Koch brothers. Cheap talent for our Silicon Valley/Slopes folks, from India, too.

Who the Hell is this Orange Man and the obscene outdated quaint notion of MAGA. It's outrageous.

I know. Lets do a poll. How many of you even care what a schmuck does as Pres. It's the big dream of the better world that matters. Trump's just farting in the cushions. It's the intoxicating addiction to having things go the way you believe.

The Resistance is all about having things stay on track with the program, like they'd be if Hillary had won.
 
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/27/us/politics/fbi-trump-campaign-inspector-general.html

Not much of a surprise here, although I was assured that the IG report was going to be damning for the Russia investigation.

No surprise in the overall conclusions. The Ukraine revelations that have spurred an impeachment inquiry, should also now make it more difficult for AG Barr to put over a Ukraine conspiracy theory onto the public, via the Durham probe, if that was the plan. At least I hope so. Been frustrating watching these lying *%}*# push their alternative reality.

You beat me to it, was about to post this. I'll post anyway, for those who can't get past the Times paywall:

https://thehill.com/policy/national...ussia-probe-to-find-no-spying-by-fbi-ny-times

"An investigation by an internal government watchdog has not found evidence that the FBI tried to put informants in President Trump's 2016 campaign, The New York Times reported Wednesday, citing people familiar with a draft report on the probe.

The Times reported that the finding is one of several by Justice Department Inspector General Michael Horowitz that impairs Trump-ally claims of impropriety by the bureau. It reportedly finds that the FBI didn't act in a politically motivated manner when seeking to wiretap then-Trump campaign aide Carter Page.

The draft report criticizes FBI officials for alleged errors and omissions, the Times reported. It reportedly concludes that the FBI was careless when trying to wiretap Page and accuses a lawyer of altering a document in 2017.

The front-line lawyer, Kevin Clinesmith, could face criminal charges, according to the newspaper.

Neither The Hill nor the Times has reviewed the draft report. The people familiar cautioned the Times that it is not finalized.

The Times reported that the document will also debunk the claim that the FBI relied on a dossier by former British spy Christopher Steele, though it will say the bureau should have told judges about possible issues with the document.

President Trump, Attorney General William Barr and other allies of the president have said the Trump campaign may have been spied on.
 
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