This made me kinda sad today...

[fishonjazz]

I'm not entirely sure tbh. I've read accounts of parents having to make the call to spare their child's life when viability is slim, and if born the baby's life is sure to be short and painful. I've also read accounts of mothers carrying twins, and one of the fetuses developing with severe abnormalities that may jeopardize the successful birth of the other. I think abortion should be on the table in these circumstances.

Ya. I read about a woman who made the difficult decision to get an abortion because the doctor told her that the child would be born in extreme pain would suffer right until death. Mom wanted to spare her child that pain and suffering despite the financial sacrifice and physical sacrifice she (the mother) knew she would have to go through.

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[infection]

I'm not entirely sure tbh. I've read accounts of parents having to make the call to spare their child's life when viability is slim, and if born the baby's life is sure to be short and painful. I've also read accounts of mothers carrying twins, and one of the fetuses developing with severe abnormalities that may jeopardize the successful birth of the other. I think abortion should be on the table in these circumstances.

These scenarios play out such as in a situation of twin-to-twin transfusion and sometimes there is fetal selection. However, you have to look and the entirety of what you’re talking about and not one thing in a vacuum — when you’re talking about fetal selection in the third trimester, you are not talking about the same thing as if they were 10 weeks or 15 weeks or what have you, performing an abortion at that stage in the pregnancy induced significant risk to both the other twin and the mother, and you’d be looking at getting far enough along to where delivery is the safest option.

 

[infection]

Ya. I read about a woman who made the difficult decision to get an abortion because the doctor told her that the child would be born in extreme pain would suffer right until death. Mom wanted to spare her child that pain and suffering despite the financial sacrifice and physical sacrifice she (the mother) knew she would have to go through.

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I think it’s also imperative, separate from this issue, that we remove the demigod status of science and medicine, because there’s a lot we don’t know and we make a lot of decisions on very fallible ‘expert opinion.’

I’m not saying that in any specific scenario, just in general.

 

[Zombie]

These scenarios play out such as in a situation of twin-to-twin transfusion and sometimes there is fetal selection. However, you have to look and the entirety of what you’re talking about and not one thing in a vacuum — when you’re talking about fetal selection in the third trimester, you are not talking about the same thing as if they were 10 weeks or 15 weeks or what have you, performing an abortion at that stage in the pregnancy induced significant risk to both the other twin and the mother, and you’d be looking at getting far enough along to where delivery is the safest option.

Here is the story I was thinking of, from this article

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/apr/18/late-term-abortion-experience-donald-trump

To make matters worse, Olivia’s life was in danger. Cate’s amniotic sac was growing and restricting the growth of Olivia’s sac.

If she carried to full term, the restriction on Olivia’s sac would likely mean an early delivery. Darla says that every specialist they saw disclosed there was a high probability that Cate would not survive the delivery but if she did, there was no guarantee the surgeries – removing the encephalocele and placing her brain tissue back into her skull – would save her.

Darla cried and Peter prayed. “We needed a miracle and we knew as the day went on we weren’t going to get one.


Their other option was abortion, one they did not take lightly, but one that felt rushed because of Texas’s restrictive abortion laws, which bans abortions after 22 weeks. Darla and Peter had 12 days to decide. “If laws were different ... we would have done more testing – one doctor mentioned an MRI, for example, to try to test the level of her brain function. But we didn’t have that, and knowing what timeline we were on, we spent a lot of sleepless nights researching, making appointments, talking to each other and our therapist, and really just spending time being the four of us,” she says.

“Finally, we just looked at each other and said it was okay. We had to do what was best for her. So we knew what we had to do to bring home one.” Darla says she was prepared to deal with it all, but “if it meant Cate was going to suffer, we just couldn’t do that to her”.

At 21 weeks and six days, Darla had an injection, and Cate’s heart stopped. “For us, it was completely humane,” she says.

In the case of an additional fetus that gets aborted in the womb, the tissue is usually reabsorbed back into the body, but that wasn’t the case this time.

“I kept telling Peter, I’m carrying our healthy baby and our dead baby. I can’t reconcile that in my brain. At the same time, it was a comfort to know that I didn’t have to say goodbye right then,” she says.

Thirteen weeks after the diagnosis, Darla delivered Cate and then gave birth to Olivia, a healthy 5lb baby. The family took turns holding Cate and later in the afternoon, the chaplain came to take her away.

“And then we had to grasp that we were only a family of three,” she says.

So not quite 24 weeks, but had they the benefit of the extra time they could have made a better informed decision.

 

[Zombie]

I think it’s also imperative, separate from this issue, that we remove the demigod status of science and medicine, because there’s a lot we don’t know and we make a lot of decisions on very fallible ‘expert opinion.’

I’m not saying that in any specific scenario, just in general.

Yeah I think this is good advice. That said, as I'm sure you'd agree science and medicine are about as good as we've got. I'll take fallible expert opinion over infallible dogmatic opinion every time.

 

[infection]

Here is the story I was thinking of, from this article

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/apr/18/late-term-abortion-experience-donald-trump

To make matters worse, Olivia’s life was in danger. Cate’s amniotic sac was growing and restricting the growth of Olivia’s sac.

If she carried to full term, the restriction on Olivia’s sac would likely mean an early delivery. Darla says that every specialist they saw disclosed there was a high probability that Cate would not survive the delivery but if she did, there was no guarantee the surgeries – removing the encephalocele and placing her brain tissue back into her skull – would save her.

Darla cried and Peter prayed. “We needed a miracle and we knew as the day went on we weren’t going to get one.


Their other option was abortion, one they did not take lightly, but one that felt rushed because of Texas’s restrictive abortion laws, which bans abortions after 22 weeks. Darla and Peter had 12 days to decide. “If laws were different ... we would have done more testing – one doctor mentioned an MRI, for example, to try to test the level of her brain function. But we didn’t have that, and knowing what timeline we were on, we spent a lot of sleepless nights researching, making appointments, talking to each other and our therapist, and really just spending time being the four of us,” she says.

“Finally, we just looked at each other and said it was okay. We had to do what was best for her. So we knew what we had to do to bring home one.” Darla says she was prepared to deal with it all, but “if it meant Cate was going to suffer, we just couldn’t do that to her”.

At 21 weeks and six days, Darla had an injection, and Cate’s heart stopped. “For us, it was completely humane,” she says.

In the case of an additional fetus that gets aborted in the womb, the tissue is usually reabsorbed back into the body, but that wasn’t the case this time.

“I kept telling Peter, I’m carrying our healthy baby and our dead baby. I can’t reconcile that in my brain. At the same time, it was a comfort to know that I didn’t have to say goodbye right then,” she says.

Thirteen weeks after the diagnosis, Darla delivered Cate and then gave birth to Olivia, a healthy 5lb baby. The family took turns holding Cate and later in the afternoon, the chaplain came to take her away.

“And then we had to grasp that we were only a family of three,” she says.

So not quite 24 weeks, but had they the benefit of the extra time they could have made a better informed decision.

I’d have more sympathy for legislation that were more narrow.

 

[infection]

Yeah I think this is good advice. That said, as I'm sure you'd agree science and medicine are about as good as we've got. I'll take fallible expert opinion over infallible dogmatic opinion every time.

It’s a false dichotomy. The problem with fallible expert opinion isn’t that it’s fallible, it’s that it’s believed to be a lot more solid than it is, and then we end up doing things like basing legislation on someone’s interpretation of it, and a whole host of other problematic societal implications.

 

[Zombie]

It’s a false dichotomy. The problem with fallible expert opinion isn’t that it’s fallible, it’s that it’s believed to be a lot more solid than it is, and then we end up doing things like basing legislation on someone’s interpretation of it.

Absent solid opinion we should probably have less, rather than more restrictive legislation based on it, no?

 

[infection]

Absent solid opinion we should probably have less, rather than more restrictive legislation based on it, no?

I’m not sure what specific application you have in mind. Mine is more “so-and-so said this, so that’s what we did, therefore that’s exactly what always happens, or even that’s for certain based on our case, etc.”

i.e. guy protects his family from an intruder using his bump stock, intruder leaves and his family is safe. We should never take away his ability to protect his family by banning the bump stock.

 

[Zombie]

I’m not sure what specific application you have in mind. Mine is more “so-and-so said this, so that’s what we did, therefore that’s exactly what always happens, or even that’s for certain based on our case, etc.”

i.e. guy protects his family from an intruder using his bump stock, intruder leaves and his family is safe. We should never take away his ability to protect his family by banning the bump stock.

I'm talking about abortion law specifically. You said you'd be more comfortable with a more narrowly written law, but if the law is going to be based on fallible expert opinion, then perhaps it should be less narrow so there is more freedom for each individual who is faced with such a nightmare decision.

 

[infection]

I'm talking about abortion law specifically. You said you'd be more comfortable with a more narrowly written law, but if the law is going to be based on fallible expert opinion, then perhaps it should be less narrow so there is more freedom for each individual who is faced with such a nightmare decision.

More narrowly written than “life or health of the patient.”

 

[Zombie]

More narrowly written than “life or health of the patient.”

Or they could just leave all that out and leave it up to the woman...

 

[infection]

Or they could just leave all that out and leave it up to the woman...

And that’s the crux of the issue. I think birth privilege is a thing. All these laws are conceived of and passed by people who have never been aborted. So, yeah, I think it’s more about gaining ground than it is about the health fantasy, just as the conservative “saved someone with my guns” fantasy enables a lot of other bad stuff to happen.

 

[Gameface]

This has been an interesting exchange. I commend infection, Zombie and fishonjazz for a respectful and thoughtful discussion.

Thank you all.

 

[Zombie]

And that’s the crux of the issue. I think birth privilege is a thing. All these laws are conceived of and passed by people who have never been aborted. So, yeah, I think it’s more about gaining ground than it is about the health fantasy, just as the conservative “saved someone with my guns” fantasy enables a lot of other bad stuff to happen.

That's fair enough. I disagree on the count of birth privilege but I can understand the position. I agree with the health fantasy aspect.

 

[Hotdog]

I think Infection makes a great point about birth privilege. All these alive people discriminating against the unborn. Its not right.

If the baby is female, why doesn't she get to choose what happens to her body?

 

[fishonjazz]

I think there are pro life people..... These people believe that abortion is wrong but understand that there are rare circumstances when abortion may be the right decision.

I think there are anti abortion (forced birth) people..... These people believe that there is never a time for an abortion to be done and think all should be illegal regardless of circumstances.

Then there are pro choice people..... These people believe that abortion is a very hard, sad choice the some women/girls make and support those women/girls and their families and doctors for whatever decision they make and have compassion for all involved.

Then there are pro abortion people who don't really care about how or why an abortion is done and figure it's no one's business and helps keep population control down and keep less unwanted people in society to grow up to have a negative effect on society.

I hope that the vast majority fall into categories 1 and 3.

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[gandalfe]

Also, in the third trimester, delivering a non-viable fetus is always safer than aborting and then delivering the non-viable fetus.

Where did you serve your OB residency?

 

[Stoked]

Where did you serve your OB residency?

Irrelevant. Instead of trying to attack his credentials go at his information. Is it factual?

A plumber can tell me how to fix my car. And if he’s right he’s right. Regardless of wether he is the expected, recognized source.

 

[infection]

Where did you serve your OB residency?

I did a residency in another specialty. Where’d you do yours?