Transgender and sports

[Al-O-Meter]

You don't know Thomas, what's going on in her life, nor how her training is going, but that hasn't stopped you from making confident predictions. Why is that?

The only predictions I believe I've made is that Thomas will be faster in the 10 foot deep pool used in the next meet than in the 7 foot deep pool used in the most recent meet. I believe that because of a vast collection of evidence. It is possible a swimmer could go faster in a shallow pool just like it is possible a biological female could beat a biological male, but on average it doesn't happen. Objective competitive advantages do exist. Thomas should be welcomed in competition but should be competing with other biological males even if Lia wants to wear a dress between swim meets. Lia is a biological male. Lia is NOT a biological female. Call Thomas by whatever pronoun you want but Lia is a biological male pretending to be a biological female. Lia's charade may be motivated by wanting what is presented to the world to match some interior feeling but it is still a charade and Lia Thomas is still a biological male even when wearing a dress. The divisions in sport are not about fashion.

 

[One Brow]

The only predictions I believe I've made is that Thomas will be faster in the 10 foot deep pool used in the next meet than in the 7 foot deep pool used in the most recent meet. I believe that because of a vast collection of evidence.

Yet, this effect did not apply to three other swimmers on Thomas's team in the same meets, to your complete bafflement. It's almost like the effect will be minor compared to other issues. Perhaps Harvard's pool isn't as slow as you think it is. Perhaps you are letting your fear/loathing dictate over your reasoning.

Lia is a biological male.

Lia does not currently have the physiology of a biological male, so she is not one.

Call Thomas by whatever pronoun you want but Lia is a biological male pretending to be a biological female.

It statements like this where you earn the title "bigot", as much as you whine about being called that.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

It's almost like the effect will be minor compared to other issues. Perhaps Harvard's pool isn't as slow as you think it is.

Think so? Up for another wager?

 

[Scat]

The Ivy League Women's Swimming Championships were last week. Lia Thomas participated and won three events, but in each case she was too slow to qualify to participate in the NCAA championships, and wasn't close to an NCAA record. So, I wonder who in this thread will admit they were worried over nothing?

@Al-O-Meter (aka Mr. Swim Coach)?
@TheGoldStandard ?
@Scat ?
@fishonjazz ?
@slc ?
@Keefe ?

I guess we go 0 for 6. Bigots will be bigots.

I say this with all due respect, go **** yourself.

I am so tired of the holier-than-thou, pious assholes that have gathered here. And there are quite a few of you. If you disagree with them or have a difference of opinion they resort to name calling and belittlement. I think it will be quite a while before I bother coming back.

 

[One Brow]

Think so? Up for another wager?

What are the terms this time?

 

[One Brow]

I say this with all due respect, go **** yourself.

Making you angry isn't as good as changing your mind, but it's good enough to show how empty your position really is.

I am so tired of the holier-than-thou, pious assholes that have gathered here.

Funny, I don't see as many Christians/Mormons as there used to be. Perhaps you're only bothered by pious assholes you disagree with?

As I've made perfectly clear, multiple times, I don't claim to be any less racist, transphobic, etc., than any other white, straight, cis, man of my age. The reason it doesn't bother me, like it bothers you, likely has to do with that self-awareness, and the understanding that I'm trying to improve, not defend myself.

And there are quite a few of you. If you disagree with them or have a difference of opinion they resort to name calling and belittlement.

Identifying someone as a "bigot" isn't name-calling, it's a service I am happy to provide.

I think it will be quite a while before I bother coming back.

Your loss.

 

[Gameface]

I say this with all due respect, go **** yourself.

I am so tired of the holier-than-thou, pious assholes that have gathered here. And there are quite a few of you. If you disagree with them or have a difference of opinion they resort to name calling and belittlement. I think it will be quite a while before I bother coming back.

In this specific instance I'm with you. I think One Brow's post was a little much. I think this is a complex issue and it's an issue that is very, I don't really have the right word on the tip of my lounge, but it's a rather novel (in the virus sense, lol) issue in that many of us are dealing with the concept for the very first time and we don't really know what to make of it.

I've had the fortune to have met a handful of transgender kids in their late teens. It's been a mix of female and male transgender kids, but it has been a little more frequent for me to meet a female transgender kid.

I've said it before but none of these kids is "militant" about trans issues. They are overwhelmingly homebodies and I think pretty much all of them decided to opt for online or homeschooling fairly shortly after coming out.

Anyway, I'm getting off topic. I have struggled to understand the entire transgender phenomenon. My child (and many of these kids share this particular doctor) has had the fortune to have who I think might be the foremost transgender doctor in the area. This is a person who in the 70s studied under one of the foremost transgender doctors in Sweden (I'm like 90% sure it was Sweden) and has been in the field for a very long time. In order for my child to be seen by this doctor it was required that all legal guardians had to go to the first appointment and provide consent for treatment. This doctor expressed their (I'm using neutral pronouns but this doctor is not transgender and is fine with gender specific pronouns) astonishment in the explosion in people identifying as transgender. They really were shocked by the massive increase in the last decade or so.

So this is an issue that many of us are trying to understand and trying to figure out how we feel about it. I'm right there in that struggle.

I don't think it's useful to draw lines in the sand and put labels on people who are in a different place on the issue right now. For me the most important part is to simply establish that transgender people exist, it's about them, not about you, feel how you want but recognize that these people have a right to exist and a right to pursue their own individual happiness so long as that doesn't infringe on the rights of anyone else, at the very least. I hope that violence against them, which is outrageously high, will fall, and that fewer and fewer transgender people will be killed simply for being transgender. I think we're in a phase right now where that is priority #1 for transgender people and the people close to them.

I do not need transgender advocates who inadvertently increase hostility towards transgender people.

 

[Deleted member 365]

Making you angry isn't as good as changing your mind, but it's good enough to show how empty your position really is.


Funny, I don't see as many Christians/Mormons as there used to be. Perhaps you're only bothered by pious assholes you disagree with?

As I've made perfectly clear, multiple times, I don't claim to be any less racist, transphobic, etc., than any other white, straight, cis, man of my age. The reason it doesn't bother me, like it bothers you, likely has to do with that self-awareness, and the understanding that I'm trying to improve, not defend myself.


Identifying someone as a "bigot" isn't name-calling, it's a service I am happy to provide.


Your loss.

Well stated.

I have an evolving view on trans sports. I’m open to arguments for and against their participation in sports. But it needs to be fact based and not just empty arguments easily identifiable as bigotry as many of these debates devolve into.

At the end of the day, I want trans people to feel valued and welcomed. They are a marginalized population and I imagine life can be pretty damn hard for them. I want all athletes to have good and fair experiences. I hope people treat them they way they’d want to be treated.

Like I said, I’m open to having an evolving opinion on trans sports. I don’t have many or any of the answers here.

 

[Deleted member 365]

In this specific instance I'm with you. I think One Brow's post was a little much. I think this is a complex issue and it's an issue that is very, I don't really have the right word on the tip of my lounge, but it's a rather novel (in the virus sense, lol) issue in that many of us are dealing with the concept for the very first time and we don't really know what to make of it.

I've had the fortune to have met a handful of transgender kids in their late teens. It's been a mix of female and male transgender kids, but it has been a little more frequent for me to meet a female transgender kid.

I've said it before but none of these kids is "militant" about trans issues. They are overwhelmingly homebodies and I think pretty much all of them decided to opt for online or homeschooling fairly shortly after coming out.

Anyway, I'm getting off topic. I have struggled to understand the entire transgender phenomenon. My child (and many of these kids share this particular doctor) has had the fortune to have who I think might be the foremost transgender doctor in the area. This is a person who in the 70s studied under one of the foremost transgender doctors in Sweden (I'm like 90% sure it was Sweden) and has been in the field for a very long time. In order for my child to be seen by this doctor it was required that all legal guardians had to go to the first appointment and provide consent for treatment. This doctor expressed their (I'm using neutral pronouns but this doctor is not transgender and is fine with gender specific pronouns) astonishment in the explosion in people identifying as transgender. They really were shocked by the massive increase in the last decade or so.

So this is an issue that many of us are trying to understand and trying to figure out how we feel about it. I'm right there in that struggle.

I don't think it's useful to draw lines in the sand and put labels on people who are in a different place on the issue right now. For me the most important part is to simply establish that transgender people exist, it's about them, not about you, feel how you want but recognize that these people have a right to exist and a right to pursue their own individual happiness so long as that doesn't infringe on the rights of anyone else, at the very least. I hope that violence against them, which is outrageously high, will fall, and that fewer and fewer transgender people will be killed simply for being transgender. I think we're in a phase right now where that is priority #1 for transgender people and the people close to them.

I do not need transgender advocates who inadvertently increase hostility towards transgender people.

This is also a really good post and I appreciate your sincerity.

 

[One Brow]

I do not need transgender advocates who inadvertently increase hostility towards transgender people.

I agree with all of that post, except for "increase".

 

[Al-O-Meter]

This doctor expressed their (I'm using neutral pronouns but this doctor is not transgender and is fine with gender specific pronouns) astonishment in the explosion in people identifying as transgender. They really were shocked by the massive increase in the last decade or so.

"Explosion" is an understatement. Now 21% of Gen Z is identifying as LGBT. Our society holds victimhood up as a virtue and toxic masculinity as a sin. If you dare question the designation of LGBT as putting someone in a victim class and deserving of compensatory extra privilege then someone like One Brow will be around shortly to call you a bigot. There is power in that and who doesn't want to be powerful? Alex Jones was a bit off base. It is vitriol like that posted by One Brow that is turning the frogs gay.

 

[One Brow]

"Explosion" is an understatement. Now 21% of Gen Z is identifying as LGBT.

The LGBT people were always there, just scared to self-identify.

Our society holds victimhood up as a virtue and toxic masculinity as a sin.

Besides the utter nonsense (I haven't read a single civil-rights activist who encourages feeling like a victim), why shouldn't toxic behavior automatically be sinful behavior?

If you dare question the designation of LGBT as putting someone in a victim class and deserving of compensatory extra privilege then someone like One Brow will be around shortly to call you a bigot.

You have to be pretty dense to not notice how LGBT people are victimized.

What's the extra privilege to which you refer? Please be specific.

There is power in that and who doesn't want to be powerful?

There is no power in being LGBT, and the only power in calling someone a bigot is over people who don't want to be bigots, but nevertheless are.

It is vitriol like that posted by One Brow that is turning the frogs gay.

Actually, it's various types of chemical run-off, although it's not quite "gay".