Yesterday - Bundy Ranch

[franklin]

you seem to be assuming something here. I had a boss once who said "Never assume anything, because. .. . . at that point he went to blackboard. . . . and wrote the word in a particular way our filter won't permit, and stated emphatically that I was embarrassing him.

I understand all about your concerns for local government being corrupt. Perhaps you haven't realized how corrupt national or global governance is, as well.

That's why I argue for LIMITED government power at all levels, and more respect for personal and human rights, of which the right to hold and use property is but one.

I understand some object to anyone who misuses any property as they may judge that. That's why we have zoning ordinances everywhere where there are neighbors looking over their fences, or insomniacs hearing barking dogs next door.

If you stink much, you are in effect punching others in the nose downwind. Clean air is a defensible personal right.. . . equivalent to the "right to life" in fact. I know folks who I think carry that kind of law too far, too.

Tort law is a good area of legal practice, if you can demonstrate harm caused by another to yourself. Things we accept generally as injurious to people deserve codification. At a local level, which is sometimes best because people half a continent away really don't know what damages western range land, and what does not.

If BY had set the line at 4000 ft, nobody would be living anywhere in Utah except along the Colorado river from Moab on down, or the Virgin River below Zions' canyon. Sometimes exaggeration is fun, sometimes it's just stupid. I think BY was a lot like others I decry as "elitist", handing down ignorant (sometimes) decrees. It would have been better to build on the sides of Great Basin valleys in certain respects. That's where you have the gravels that make a building less subject to amplified earthquake damage. The clays in the center of the valleys will act like jello in any earthquake, and keep on rocking long after the original shock ends. . . .

In very broad terms, leaving more decisions to property owners or more local governments is a way of applying nature's general strategy of diversifying life and spreading risks. One central authority dictating that everyone does the same thing means we'll all go down together if anything ever happens that just isn't anticipated by that one plan.

But even more importantly, the right of an individual to own and use property is, as Blackstone observed in medieval England, equivalent to the "Right to Life". If you can't be secure in your property rights, nothing else can be secure.

Ranchers don't "grab" land beneath rivers. Everybody had a common convention on property lines: the property line is the middle of the river. It's the national government that has grabbed the land under the rivers, and in fact the wetlands adjacent to rivers, and in fact in every draw that is tributary to rivers.

You suppose "local land politics" is "the most easily and deeply corrupted cesspool there is" principally because you're as ignorant of the facts as humanly possible. You don't know anything beyond your personal experience or observation, which in fact you did not bother to research and understand. It's just like in the old song about somebody turning a nice little play spot in the woods and turning it into a parking lot. Sorta says to me somebody grew up trespassing on other people's property and complain about how the owner decided to make it a convenience for the general public needing a good place to shop.

What I do realize is, that mega-planners wanting centralized power under government force today do have ideas about taking away, or reducing, the "property rights" of everyone who owns any property, anywhere. Ever see a bumper sticker that reads "Think Globally. Act Locally" ? That's code for implementing the same plan in every community, a call to arms so to speak for footsoldiers for global management. You were right. The local politics has been corrupted. . .

I'd tell you who these people are, and what philosophy they adhere to, but too many people are complaining about my use of precise terms with accurate meanings that could describe it.

I read a little bit down past your diatribe against my "4000 or whatever" comment and failed to connect any of your 20 random dots. Can you retype this in a more concise, readable way to help me see what your point was?

 

[franklin]

Do we really need to rehash Mormons' animosity towards the federal government and racist views of blacks?

Yes, Bundy's religion explained a lot to me about his outlook and stubbornness. He views himself as an altruistic patriot on a noble mission. In reality, he's a selfish cheap *** who doesn't want to pay his bills. There's a reason why people hate working in restaurants in utah county. Many Mormons are frugal cheap asses. They have large families so they try to save money with using excessive coupons and weak tips. At least once a week a fellow coworker would get a note written on a receipt saying something along the lines of, "10 percent is good enough for The Lord so why should i pay you more?"

In salt lake? Servers average a good 10-15 percent more on tips. That's literally $50-150 bucks more per day.

Every day I worked in the restaurant business in utah county we had folks thing to combine several coupons (even though they specifically state you cannot). When I worked up in salt lake? Never once did someone try to pull one on me by combining coupons.

I don't know what it's like in a "big city" like salt lake, but here in utah county people still talk about "Cain's sin" and how blacks weren't "ready" for the priesthood. I've even heard in some meetings that the holocaust was the Jews' punishment for rejecting Christ while American slavery was Cain's descendents punishment and Native American extinction/removal was their punishment for being lamanites.

The things said by that BYU professor being fired a few years ago weren't surprising to any familiar with utah county or BYU. He was merely repeating what had been said or insinuated during conference, sacrament meetings, and Sunday school countless times.

I'm not mudslinging I'm being serious here. Bundy's religious background sheds some light onto this. There's a lot of perverse thinking in rural Mormon places.

Trout, isn't your mom or grandma an ultra conservative weirdo who spews out racist vitriol? Where do you think she got that from?

Want to know what Bundy was 150 years ago? One of the MM massacre fellas. A backwards thinking hick who thought he was on some sort of altruistic mission against a foreign enemy.

Elder uchtdorf gave a talk last spring during conference about how past leaders have made mistakes. I think, in part, because of the closed-mindedness and rural nature of what was the home base of the LDS church. However, in just the past 50 years you've seen a surge in being an international church and expanding out of its rural and obscure borders.

The vast majority of Mormon Utah County business owners are complete assholes who have no problem abusing labor for their righteous benefit. I'll never understand this hypocrisy. It's the biggest stain on the religion IMO.

There are exceptions to the rule, however. My wife works for great group of Mormons business owners. They treat her better than any company I've interacted with.

 

[franklin]

I have these quickly. (Parcel ID's)

REID BUNKERVILLE L L C DST-901*#002-26-301-002

REID BUNKERVILLE L L C DST-800 #002-26-301-004

REID BUNKERVILLE L L C DST-800 #002-26-301-005

REID BUNKERVILLE L L C DST-800 #002-26-701-001

You believe a US Senator has enough pull to influence the actions of the BLM without stirring up a controversy big enough for his own party to throw him out? What you're suggesting would take so many complacent BLM workers that it's hard to believe a cover up would be even remotely possible. I guarantee you there are enough dedicated republican voting workers involved -- who are pining at the bit for a chance to be the one who took down Dirty Harry -- that a cover up of this magnitude is nigh* impossible.

 

[Dr. Jones]

You believe a US Senator has enough pull to influence the actions of the BLM without stirring up a controversy big enough for his own party to throw him out? What you're suggesting would take so many complacent BLM workers that it's hard to believe a cover up would be even remotely possible. I guarantee you there are enough dedicated republican voting workers involved -- who are pining at the bit for a chance to be the one who took down Dirty Harry -- that a cover up of this magnitude is nigh* impossible.

I have outlined it.

Word gets to law firm masquerading as environmentalist group. Said group sues the BLM to protect an endangered species, knowing the BLM can't respond in the allotted 90 day time requirement. Group was happy to be involved as they were awarded attorney fees by BLM for failure to comply. Environmentalists are happy.

BLM under pressure by group works to protect the habitat of the targeted species. Has to take recommendations such as removing cattle.

Rancher loses livelihood, there's now known claim to grazing rights (etc), making the land able to be sold to public via laws passed by REID.

It's not difficult to see 'how' it happens. And I have passed along documentation that proves that, at the least, an investigation should be underway.

 

[franklin]

I have outlined it.

Word gets to law firm masquerading as environmentalist group. Said group sues the BLM to protect an endangered species, knowing the BLM can't respond in the allotted 90 day time requirement. Group was happy to be involved as they were awarded attorney fees by BLM for failure to comply. Environmentalists are happy.

BLM under pressure by group works to protect the habitat of the targeted species. Has to take recommendations such as removing cattle.

Rancher loses livelihood, there's now known claim to grazing rights (etc), making the land able to be sold to public via laws passed by REID.

It's not difficult to see 'how' it happens. And I have passed along documentation that proves that, at the least, an investigation should be underway.

This conspiracy involves way too much time and investment for what little reward.

 

[Dr. Jones]

This conspiracy involves way too much time and investment for what little reward.

Some day, over a beer, I would sincerely like to explain the reward to you. It will make sense to you, I think.

 

[babe]

Mother in law, and it's not because she's a Mo -- it's because she's from Vernal and thinks Rush Limbaugh is The Christ reincarnated.

It's gonna be mothers' day soon. Send her some flowers, and she'll pray for you.

 

[babe]

I read a little bit down past your diatribe against my "4000 or whatever" comment and failed to connect any of your 20 random dots. Can you retype this in a more concise, readable way to help me see what your point was?

Get back to me on this when you've quit drinking, for good.

What you do is line up the beer bottles, not connect dots.

 

[babe]

Do we really need to rehash Mormons' animosity towards the federal government and racist views of blacks?

Yes, Bundy's religion explained a lot to me about his outlook and stubbornness. He views himself as an altruistic patriot on a noble mission. In reality, he's a selfish cheap *** who doesn't want to pay his bills. There's a reason why people hate working in restaurants in utah county. Many Mormons are frugal cheap asses. They have large families so they try to save money with using excessive coupons and weak tips. At least once a week a fellow coworker would get a note written on a receipt saying something along the lines of, "10 percent is good enough for The Lord so why should i pay you more?"

In salt lake? Servers average a good 10-15 percent more on tips. That's literally $50-150 bucks more per day.

Every day I worked in the restaurant business in utah county we had folks thing to combine several coupons (even though they specifically state you cannot). When I worked up in salt lake? Never once did someone try to pull one on me by combining coupons.

I don't know what it's like in a "big city" like salt lake, but here in utah county people still talk about "Cain's sin" and how blacks weren't "ready" for the priesthood. I've even heard in some meetings that the holocaust was the Jews' punishment for rejecting Christ while American slavery was Cain's descendents punishment and Native American extinction/removal was their punishment for being lamanites.

The things said by that BYU professor being fired a few years ago weren't surprising to any familiar with utah county or BYU. He was merely repeating what had been said or insinuated during conference, sacrament meetings, and Sunday school countless times.

I'm not mudslinging I'm being serious here. Bundy's religious background sheds some light onto this. There's a lot of perverse thinking in rural Mormon places.

Trout, isn't your mom or grandma an ultra conservative weirdo who spews out racist vitriol? Where do you think she got that from?

Want to know what Bundy was 150 years ago? One of the MM massacre fellas. A backwards thinking hick who thought he was on some sort of altruistic mission against a foreign enemy.

Elder uchtdorf gave a talk last spring during conference about how past leaders have made mistakes. I think, in part, because of the closed-mindedness and rural nature of what was the home base of the LDS church. However, in just the past 50 years you've seen a surge in being an international church and expanding out of its rural and obscure borders.

Sometimes I think we can't solve problems in real time unless we understand the past; sometimes I wonder if we don't just get mired down in yesterday's problems when we try to put now in that context.

I don't think we're better than folks used to be, I think we're pretty much the same. We have new prejudices, new conceits, new hatreds, new wars. . . . and we think those former people were ignoramuses because they had theirs.

 

[babe]

This conspiracy involves way too much time and investment for what little reward.

So you don't think "conspiracy" is exactly an everyday sorta thing?

Two women talking. . . . A coach calling a huddle and a center calling a play. . ..

Three or four gas stations sorta having a custom of having the same price?

a few egotistical "intelligentsia" twenty-somethings with a plan for saving the potato bugs. . . .

a little "club" calling themselves a nearby mountain range for a name, getting funding from some mining cartel, a feedlot/meatpacking cartel, and a timber cartel, and an oil cartel. . . . to "save" an owl or a fish. . . .

anyone acting with a purpose to evade full publicity, I suppose, is just "being smart" in your book. Controlling the information, controlling the discussion, driving public policy in some purposed way the trailer trash just wouldn't understand. I get it.

A politician like Harry Reid has a lot of "supporters" who give him money or other critical support, politically. In a town like Vegas, you're an idiot if you don't think there's a lot of payoff deals being struck every day.

And in Vegas, you just won't "fit in" if you're not a "player", and you're a dumbass if you try to get in the way of anything Harry does.

I really think you're smarter than this. It looks to me like you've found your own teat.

maybe it even pours out free beer.

 

[babe]

So PKM's case is probably an example of abuse of power, including personal and crony financial exploitation of power. Such case are much more common that ever get brought to court, and very few courts will "stand in the breach" and defend equal rights under the law anymore. It's something, if a judge does that, that will earn his early removal from his court. Most judges today know that, and accept that as a fact of life, and are therefore just as corrupt as the politicians and government honchos and cartel-financed "enforcers" of this regime, politically-speaking.

I think our major media operations are pretty much in the sack as well. You just don't really get a good press by trying to do what's right, unless you are in fact just shamelessly exploiting some issue for the value that can be milked out of it for increasing the cash flow for the team. . . .

It's all one very good argument for believing that the government shouldn't not be a major land-holder, or a major force in economics. People who believe "big government" is less corrupt than smaller government branches can only believe that from a position of pretty abysmal ignorance. People who believe that while working for the government are the last people on the block you should trust.

 

[The Thriller]

I wish some natives had "stood their ground" and given Bundy's buddies a first hand lesson on the 2nd amendment the other day when they trespassed on 4-wheelers (illegally) onto federal lands loaded with Native American remains.

 

[Dr. Jones]

I wish some natives had "stood their ground" and given Bundy's buddies a first hand lesson on the 2nd amendment the other day when they trespassed on 4-wheelers (illegally) onto federal lands loaded with Native American remains.

That's rich.
Smh.

 

[The Thriller]

That's rich.
Smh.

Were you one of them?

The law is the law. If anarchists want to have lil pow wows on their own private land, then by all means, do it. Fry up some road kill, talk about bringing back slavery, and shoot stuff.

But keep your damn 4 wheelers off the native lands. Stop trespassing. Pay your damn bills.

Bundy is nothing more than the lazy *** welfare queens he was bitching about.

The natives had every right to defend the lands you and your ilk were desecrating the other day.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Were you one of them?

The law is the law. If anarchists want to have lil pow wows on their own private land, then by all means, do it. Fry up some road kill, talk about bringing back slavery, and shoot stuff.

But keep your damn 4 wheelers off the native lands. Stop trespassing. Pay your damn bills.

Bundy is nothing more than the lazy *** welfare queens he was bitching about.

The natives had every right to defend the lands you and your ilk were desecrating the other day.

Nope. Wasn't one of them. I went to the ranch, initially, to see for myself what was going on. I did my own mini-investigation.
I uncovered a ton of ****.. and there are no innocent parties. I turned over what I found to those that may be able to do something about it.

Then I backed away.

I can tell you this, though, your comments are ignorant of fairness and though there are a few truths in there, it's obvious you are willing to be spoonfed your ideals rather than be proactive in discovering your own truths. Which is fine, except when you spout about it in such a manner that implies you are somehow invested and/or entitled. Which is also fine.. except it makes you come off as either a douche or a dolt, or both. And that's fine too.

 

[The Thriller]

Nope. Wasn't one of them. I went to the ranch, initially, to see for myself what was going on. I did my own mini-investigation.
I uncovered a ton of ****.. and there are no innocent parties. I turned over what I found to those that may be able to do something about it.

Then I backed away.

I can tell you this, though, your comments are ignorant of fairness and though there are a few truths in there, it's obvious you are willing to be spoonfed your ideals rather than be proactive in discovering your own truths. Which is fine, except when you spout about it in such a manner that implies you are somehow invested and/or entitled. Which is also fine.. except it makes you come off as either a douche or a dolt, or both. And that's fine too.

I am freedom loving American who believes in honoring and sustaining the law. The American flag isn't just my flag when I get something out of it (like a welfare check or free land usage, like bundy).

There are rules and regulations. Laws and order. The law is the law. I don't pick and choose laws.

Bundy is nothing more than a criminal. A welfare queen. He's pissed off because he has to pay for land usage (likee everyone else does). And is subsidized by me and you. If he wants to use his "own" land then get off his *** and purchase land.

I feel like growing a garden. I think I'll just tear up a part of liberty park for my garden. Oh wait, I can't do that? Ok gang, this guvmint is out of control! Meet me at liberty part, high noon, with guns! I'm going to enlighten you with my thoughts on government and negroes!

Absolutely zero difference between that and Bundy. Zero.

He's a criminal and should be either out behind bars or shot (if he resists).

 

[Dr. Jones]

I am freedom loving American who believes in honoring and sustaining the law. The American flag isn't just my flag when I get something out of it (like a welfare check or free land usage, like bundy).

There are rules and regulations. Laws and order. The law is the law. I don't pick and choose laws.

Bundy is nothing more than a criminal. A welfare queen. He's pissed off because he has to pay for land usage (likee everyone else does). And is subsidized by me and you. If he wants to use his "own" land then get off his *** and purchase land.

I feel like growing a garden. I think I'll just tear up a part of liberty park for my garden.

Okay.. I'll play.

Who is subject to these laws you speak of?

 

[The Thriller]

Okay.. I'll play.

Who is subject to these laws you speak of?

All Americans are. If you live in this country you agree to follow our laws. Don't like it? Change it through the legislative and judicial processes.

Don't follow the law? Face the consequences. Pretty simple really. God gave us all free agency but he didn't give us freedom from consequences.

Bundy failed to change the laws, he didn't abide by them, and now he (should) face the consequences.

There's literally zero difference from me tearing up half of liberty park to grow crops and fleece the taxpayers of SL to subsidize my garden (and refusing to pay a usage fee) and Bundy. Thousands of other ranchers follow the rules. Bundy didn't.

 

[Dr. Jones]

All Americans are. If you live in this country you agree to follow our laws. Don't like it? Change it through the legislative and judicial processes.

Don't follow the law? Face the consequences. Pretty simple really. God gave us all free agency but he didn't give us freedom from consequences.

Cool. I follow.
Now, humor me.. what if those breaking the law are government officials? What if there have been attempts at investigations launched that have been thwarted by these same official's actions? Then what?
What if YOU were wronged by a politician breaking the law and the law itself wouldn't protect you?
(Just play along for a moment)
What would YOU do?

 

[The Thriller]

Cool. I follow.
Now, humor me.. what if those breaking the law are government officials? What if there have been attempts at investigations launched that have been thwarted by these same official's actions? Then what?
What if YOU were wronged by a politician breaking the law and the law itself wouldn't protect you?
(Just play along for a moment)
What would YOU do?

"Man does not simply exist but always decided what his existence will be, what he will become the next moment. By the same token, every human being has the freedom to change at any instant."

- Viktor Frankl (Holocaust survivor)

If someone had been through what Frankl had been through can say that, then what's Bundy's excuse?

To answer your question:

1. I'd ask myself why those people are doing stuff to me.
2. I'd go through the legal processes set up.
3. I would pay my fines and/move away.

A few years back I was cruising on the east side of SL valley. The speed limit wasn't posted and I was trying to make it to a game. I turned this corner and saw out of the corner of my eye a cop hiding in a LDS church parking lot. I knew immediately I was screwed. He came up, lights blazing, and I received a ticket.

Did I agree with the ticket? Heck no. Speed limit hadn't been posted for miles.
Did I like it? Of course not.
Is it illegal for a cop to hide in church parking lots? I thought so.
Did I appeal it? Absolutely.
Did I lose? Yep.
Did I pay the fine or start a cry asking for anarchists around to bring guns? I paid the fine.

Does that answer your question?

I don't feel like anything Bundy has done justifies his #1 mistake, he broke the law by using federal lands without paying the fees. Whatever happens after is inconsequential in my mind.

He had the choice decades ago to decide what kind of man he was going to be. He chose to be a welfare queen and refused to pay his fees. If I were his bishop I would immediately revoke his temple recommend/membership until he had changed. He's using his free agency to break laws and promote evil.

What part of law abiding citizens do the Bundy's not understand?

What would you do or think if I tore up half of liberty park for my own selfish desires?